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Post 11 Jun 2022, 13:29 • #1 
Sport
Joined: 04/20/20
Posts: 98
Location: Springfield, PA
I have a NOS Phillipson KF70 fly rod kit that's made it's way to my bench and I don't know if I know what I have. This is my first Phillipson and quite frankly, I'm intimidated by all the different variants - Scotchply, Eponite, pre/post 3M, metal vs sleeve ferrule, and on and on . . .

To me, selecting a Phillipson is like going to the grocery store to buy Cranberry Juice: there's about a hundred different varieties on the shelf that all look the same - some really good and some not so much - and I usually buy the wrong one. But at the highest level, the best Phillipson advice I've gleaned from this forum is stay short and Scotchplys are generally good. This kit is a 7' 6WT Salmon Scotchply kit with a reinforced sleeve-over ferrule that I think will fish well.



One or two questions for the forum:

The instruction pamphlet that came with the kit provides spacing for 7 guides for this length of rod (I uploaded the full pamphlet to the rod papers thread for ref). That feels a little light to me. I got the standard rule of thumb is length plus one and I'm usually a length plus two kind of guy but I'm curious what factory rod would be comparable to this blank and how many guides was it outfitted with? Specifically, what's typical Phillipson spacing for the first guide from the tip? 5-1/4" from the tip for the first guide (per the pamphlet) just feels like a lot to me.



The kit came with two thread colors: a standard white (maybe a tad bit creamy) and a mustard color marked "317". I initially assumed it to match up to a GB number but it doesn't as far as I can tell. The color is extremely close to Pro Wrap NCP 710 (Beeswax) but I haven't found any pix online that show a salmon blank with this wrap color scheme. Any of you Phillipson fanatics have a rod laying around with this color combo you can post pix of?



The front end of the reinforced ferrule is taper ground and out of the box, it looks like it was finished with a round of tape that's kind of adhered to the epoxy underneath. I'm guessing all I need to do is wrap over it as-is? Is there any additional prep I need to do before wrapping the taper and finishing with spar?



Finally, back to Cranberry juice, what do I actually have here? I did pick this up from EBay for SIG-NIF-A-CANT-LEE less that the auction asking price so regardless of "Phillipson product standing" I'll no doubt enjoy building this out and fishing it, but help me wade through what I could expect with this.

Final observation: at this point I've build out a number of very good quality domestic glass rods and with that in mind, I do think this might be the straightest, most blemish-free blank I've handled. Mr. Phillipson however didnt appear to be a spine guy - i did find it necessary to rotate the factory installed tip top to align with a very definitive spine running down the top section. : )

Thx in advance for your feedback.

//Jeff


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Post 12 Jun 2022, 09:39 • #2 
Master Guide
Joined: 04/27/07
Posts: 645
Location: Missouri
That's a typical Phillipson kit rod, if you want it to be similar to the original factory model then find one or a description of one and recreate it. If you want to build as a custom rod then build it your own way. Phillipson had a variety of models, all were the same but different also. They were competing in part with Fenwick and other rod companies. Contact Ricks Rods for thread identification questions.


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Post 12 Jun 2022, 10:05 • #3 
Master Guide
Joined: 09/29/09
Posts: 906
Location: US-MI
Cool project. Like the label on the blank and the vintage all metal reel seat. If you are placing your own interpretation on the rod then I would consider the blank color and reel seat color as your two main sources for balance in the scheme. In the event you are looking to replicate a factory original than you have a route already set for you to copy.

Looking forward to seeing your final version.


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Post 12 Jun 2022, 14:50 • #4 
Master Guide
Joined: 03/20/07
Posts: 849
Location: US-TX
I have a couple Phillipson Master MF70’s.
If you’d like I can shoot you a PM with the guide spacing measurements.

Another idea is to set them up based on Tom Morgan’s recommendations. I’m still a novice at this and have only built about 15 rods so far, but so far those Tom Morgan recommendations have never let me down.

https://www.snakeguides.com/pdf/guide_spacing_size.pdf


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Post 12 Jun 2022, 16:40 • #5 
Sport
Joined: 04/20/20
Posts: 98
Location: Springfield, PA
Thank you GB. A PM with MF guide spacing would be much appreciated. I'm a huge adopter of the Tom Morgan spacing. Right now I have guides taped on that closely follow the Morgan spacing with a few tweaks.

One thing I'm noticing looking at the Phillipson pix online is the close proximity of the guides immediately before and after the reinforced ferrule - the wrap for the guide on the top piece always seems to flow right into the reinforcing wrap for the ferrule sleeve. On the lower piece, theres a guide always right there as well.

If I follow the pamphlet spacing, that does land a guide half on the reinforcing and half off so I committed to playing around with them during my static tests.

I'm settling on something close to Morgan spacing and one more guide than Phillipson would want me to.


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Post 12 Jun 2022, 17:09 • #6 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 09/18/09
Posts: 5561
Location: Relocated to the Drought Stricken West.
The guide spacing differed across models. The rods with a guide on each side of the ferrule often had an extra guide.

Have fun.


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Post 12 Jun 2022, 17:33 • #7 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 04/20/07
Posts: 8920
Location: US-ME
The idea of that was to guide the line across the ferrule. Get the rod, space the guides as Phillipson recommended, and check the line flow. Don't change a thing if you don't see any reason to do so--except perhaps adjust the stripper and first guide to your preferred reach. There are plenty of good charts out there--including TMs for the progressive Winston/Fisher blanks--but Phillipson's suggestions were purposeful as well. Unless you can play with the positions and detect better support and line flow, there is no reason to change them. Remember that the guide positions influence the stability and distribution of load on the blank when it is flexed. These can be compromised by significant changes. Extra guides won't do any harm, but they may unnecessarily encumber the blank. Start with what you have; if you can't discern beneficial changes with other placements, stick with the plan. There may be a "better" one to someone else's build goals, but if you can't detect it, it doesn't matter to you.


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Post 12 Jun 2022, 18:06 • #8 
Administrator
Joined: 01/10/06
Posts: 7811
Location: Holly Springs, NC
Here is the guide spacing from two 7 foot Phillipson rods with glass ferrules. I measured the guides from the tip of each rod section. The instruction sheet spacing is the same as the Epoxite rod, which was Phillipson's top of the line at the time. You could glue up the reelseat and grip, tape on the guides, and test cast it. See if you like Phillipson's spacing, then adjust from there.
  • Fly Fox (FF70C) tip section, #1 = 4-7/8", #2 = 11-3/8", #3 = 19-7/8", #4 = 29-3/4", #5 = 39", butt section, stripper guide = 12-3/8"
  • Epoxite (EF70 Midge) tip section, #1 = 5-1/4", #2 = 12-1/4", #3 = 20-1/8", #4 = 29-5/16", #5 = 38-5/16", butt section, #6 = 3-1/16", stripper guide = 13-1/8"

The photo below shows tip guides on three late model Phillipson rods, an Epoxite, a Fly Fox, and a Royal Wand. The Fly Fox was wrapped over a band of paint, with the thread spiralled across to give the appearance of tipping. The Epoxite and Royal Wand had actual tipping. The Epoxite wraps are longer and more even. The finish was applied only to the wraps on the Epoxite (carefully) and Royal Wand (a bit sloppy). On the Fly Fox, the finish was applied across the wraps and the space in between (sprayed?). Time was money in the rod business. After 50-ish years, the finish on all of these rods has yellowed.

The kit thread is probably size B or C NCP nylon. I've never seen a Gudebrod #317 thread color. But the KF70 is your rod. Use whatever thread color you like and whatever guide spacing you like. Fit the rod with your favorite guides.

For lines, try a 5 weight and 6 weight and see what you like.


Tom



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Post 13 Jun 2022, 07:49 • #9 
Master Guide
Joined: 03/20/07
Posts: 849
Location: US-TX
Phillipson Master MF70 guide spacing

Tip top
5 1/4”
11 3/4”
20 1/4”
30 1/4”
40 5/8” - which is just above the metal ferrule and shares wraps with the male ferrule.
54” stripper



* Note the black paint on the blank (not black thread). All 3 of my MF70s have this. Not sure why it was done this way but it theoretically keeps the mass down.





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Post 13 Jun 2022, 08:03 • #10 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 06/23/05
Posts: 4966
Location: US-MT
Mr. Phillipson knew a thing or two about rods, his guide spacing and numbers would work fine. People put way too many guides on their rods IMHO, and I have improved a couple rods tremendously by reducing the # of guides.

Fun project for sure!


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Post 13 Jun 2022, 10:54 • #11 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 04/12/07
Posts: 1292
Location: western Massachusetts
You owe it to yourself to at least tape the guides on using Mr. Phillipson's guide spacing, and doing a few test casts to get the true Phillipson feel of that rod before you go with someone else's guide spacing.


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Post 13 Jun 2022, 10:58 • #12 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 12/31/15
Posts: 1238
Location: Northern Rockies
I like archfly's suggestion. I have tried two different guide spacings on a rod before, and I was surprised how it changed the feel of the rod. It wasn't dramatic, but I also had a clear preference. If you have the time, it should be a fun experiment.


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Post 13 Jun 2022, 12:54 • #13 
Sport
Joined: 04/20/20
Posts: 98
Location: Springfield, PA
archfly wrote:
You owe it to yourself to at least tape the guides on using Mr. Phillipson's guide spacing, and doing a few test casts to get the true Phillipson feel of that rod before you go with someone else's guide spacing.


Yep. Totally with you on this arch (and others). Nothing stopping me from taping these up the Phillipson way and heading to the back yard.

The more time I have to think about this build while I'm waiting for a spool of thread to show up, the more I think I'm going to hold close to classic. Only notable exception is the thread. Kit thread is 'C' - I'll build it out with 'A' and I already did a few test wraps with that pukey mustard I can't seem to get past. Probably going to switch it up for a GB 541 medium brown or chestnut.

Thx to all for the feedback so far. Keep it coming and I'll keep you all up to date with pix.


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Post 29 Jun 2022, 12:28 • #14 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 07/11/14
Posts: 1784
Location: urban Colorado
thanks for posting the kit instructions, interesting. It's noticeable the 7' fly rod has a longer spacing for the first guide than any of the other rods shown there.. but since Bill built that blank, I'm sure he had a good reason for it..
I've with majicwrench on the number of guides, typically go with length only for number of guides, so 7 on a 7' sounds right to me..

That's a good buy and will be a beautiful rod, nice..


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