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How many snakes in a 7'6
Post 09 Jun 2020, 10:46 • #1 
Sport
Joined: 03/28/16
Posts: 88
Location: Italy
Please, I need your help and tips
A new blank is on the way. It's a CTS 7'6 # 3 in three pieces.
The reel seat is 8/8.5 cm (3.1/3.3 inch) and the grip is around 15,5 cm (6 inch)
What do you suggest as number of snakes?? 8 or 7 + stripping + tip??
And your choice about guide spacing
Thank you in advance


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Post 09 Jun 2020, 11:10 • #2 
Guide
Joined: 09/26/12
Posts: 117
Location: AB, Canada
CTS shows 8 guides (7+stripper) plus tip top for a 7'6" rod. But I see the 7'6" Epic 3PC uses 8 guides plus stripper and tip top. FWIW I use 9 guides + stripper for 7'6" cane rods. I personally would go with the spacing for the Epic as a starting point.


Last edited by Eastslope on 09 Jun 2020, 13:07, edited 3 times in total.

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Post 09 Jun 2020, 11:56 • #3 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 05/19/14
Posts: 3356
Location: USA - Illinois
Per Tom Morgan's Guide Spacing Chart
7 1/2' #3

Tiptop 4/64
1 3 7/8" 2/0
2 8 5/8" 2/0
3 14 1/8" 2/0
4 20 3/8" 1/0
5 27 3/8" 1/0
6 35 1/4" 1
7 44" 1
8 53 5/8" 2
9 64" 8mm (stripper)


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Post 09 Jun 2020, 11:58 • #4 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 11/06/17
Posts: 1627
Location: South of Joplin
Here's a calculator- http://carlinbamboo.com/guidecalc/index.htm
I have to play around with the blank and taped on guides.


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Post 09 Jun 2020, 13:13 • #5 
Master Guide
Joined: 12/31/15
Posts: 690
Location: Three Forks of the Flathead
I have that rod in the same configuration. I also had the old Epic 7'6" 3-weight blank in 4 pieces at the same time. The action between the two was very, very close. So, I went with Epic's guide sizes and spacing. I've been pleased with the result. It's an excellent rod.


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Post 09 Jun 2020, 14:16 • #6 
Master Guide
Joined: 02/04/12
Posts: 581
Location: SE Pa
I recall when 5 guides plus tip would have been sufficient, 6 a better build quality, and 7 would be deluxe for a 7'6" fly rod. I realize I'm probably not in the majority, but to me 7 or more (plus tip) is functionally fine for a 7'6".

There's a current trend toward minimal wrap sizes, but if one would prefer "classic glass" era wraps with spirals or foil that result in extended wrap lengths, then additional guides start to look kinda busy. You can't go wrong with more guides, but I sometimes wonder about their added functionality, especially if a static tests with fewer but adequate guides produce nice results.


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Post 09 Jun 2020, 14:58 • #7 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 03/16/08
Posts: 3333
Location: Upstate-NY
springer1 wrote:
You can't go wrong with more guides, .


My experiences differ.

I am greatly influenced by vintage Leonard Bamboo rods (I live near the Catskills, and love their aesthetics and function...)
and Leonard typically used a "length in feet + 2" setup fro number of guides 9incliding stripping guide, excluding tip top),
and for lengths between even feet, they sometimes rounded up.
So, a 7.5 rod would have either 9 or 10 guides.

I typically like more rather than less guides as I enjoy the "line feel" it produces.
Also distributes stresses more evenly across the length of the taper with more guides.

BUT...

When I build rods, I tape-on guides and test-cast, before installing for good.
After an initial static-load, to get preferred spacings, I test-cast for final approval.

For certain rods, I've found adding that extra guide can make the rod feel sluggish.
And then when reduced by one guide and re-spaced, it comes back alive.

Once, on a Lamiglas 7'0" #3 2pc rod, I even swapped-out the last 4 guides toward the tip to be light wire vs standard gauge.
Boy, that rod really came alive with that change. (RMorrison owns it now)

Moral of the story, try a few guide layouts and test-cast.
You will always arrive at the sweet-spot that way.
Any publish chart you may find is really only a one-size-fits-all "suggestion".
Start with that, but tweak for perfection....

That all said, I had a conversation once with a sage rodbuilder, asking about number of guides and spacing.
His response (paraphrasing): "Yeah you can mess with that to your heart's content, but the magic is really in the taper. All that other stuff is just nipping at the edges."


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Post 09 Jun 2020, 16:06 • #8 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 05/19/14
Posts: 3356
Location: USA - Illinois
To quote from Mr. Morgan's chart, "The guides should be of light wire design except for the 8'3" #6 and 8 1/2' #7 which can be regular size wire. Except for these two the tiptop loop should also be light wire without an oversize loop."


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Post 09 Jun 2020, 16:32 • #9 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 05/19/14
Posts: 3356
Location: USA - Illinois
and furthermore........ "These guide sizes may seem small to some anglers but they have been carefully worked out and it's my recommendation they not be changed. One of the important characteristics of my designs are the light and lively tips. In order to achieve this feeling one must not weigh down the tips with guides that are too heavy. From my experience larger or oversize guides do NOT make the line shoot farther or easier. In fact, I believe bigger guides allow the line to slap around the rod more resulting in less distance."


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Post 09 Jun 2020, 19:14 • #10 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 11/06/17
Posts: 1627
Location: South of Joplin
That makes it sound like Morgan's rods are so special that other spacing won't work and by extension his spacing would be too special to work on any other rods.
Like I said I play around with the rod in question, kinda like corlay talked about, I try for the least guides that give a good working rod, imo spacing needs to change with the taper so that a universal spacing would not apply. I also like the stripper a bit closer than some manufacturers put them.
That Phillipson guy put a guide on each side of the ferrule just a few inches apart and the spacing comes long-short-long but it casts fine. I do agree with Morgan that big guides let the line slap around, but the modern rods all have giant guides so maybe I'm wrong.


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Post 09 Jun 2020, 19:39 • #11 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 05/19/14
Posts: 3356
Location: USA - Illinois
Only if you interpret Tom Morgan's quoted words in that fashion. I'm just providing information to someone who asked a question.


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Post 10 Jun 2020, 01:37 • #12 
Sport
Joined: 03/28/16
Posts: 88
Location: Italy
Thank you gentlemen for all your answers.
I agree with you Corlay, that is better to do a test before wrapping the snakes.
GlacierRambler, I also have the Epic 7'6 #4 3 piece with 8 snakes +stripping. But my doubts were born because the Epic is a rod with spigot and the CTS does not have them.
And I don't know if this could change the spacing.
Thank you Jhuskey and Trev, your tips are a good base to start


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Post 10 Jun 2020, 09:19 • #13 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 06/23/05
Posts: 4279
Location: US-MT
I find "too many" guides really detract from a rods action and looks.

On a 7'6" rod I would have a stripper, 6 snakes and a tip tip.


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Post 10 Jun 2020, 11:49 • #14 
Master Guide
Joined: 12/31/15
Posts: 690
Location: Three Forks of the Flathead
Luis wrote:
GlacierRambler, I also have the Epic 7'6 #4 3 piece with 8 snakes +stripping. But my doubts were born because the Epic is a rod with spigot and the CTS does not have them.

I really like the Epic spacing on this blank. Tell us what you like once you get a chance to play with the guide spacing on your own rod.


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Post 10 Jun 2020, 14:27 • #15 
Master Guide
Joined: 06/24/11
Posts: 919
Location: Belgium
Logically you want guides closer together in areas where the rod has more bend. I'll use a rod that works well and copy the spacing tweaking it depending on the difference in the rod's action with respect to the model I am copying.

On such a light rod I would try to use the lightest possible guides - probably single foot wires - if you don't mind the look and not have too many - again for weight considerations. That's a lively blank and I can see no point in slowing it down with any extra weight.


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Post 10 Jun 2020, 21:22 • #16 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 11/06/17
Posts: 1627
Location: South of Joplin
Some vintage factory rods for ideas, I hooked a tape measure over the tiptop and numbers are inches:
7'6" Phillipson- 4 1/2, 10,16 5/8, 24 3/4, 33 5/8, 43 1/4, 47 5/8, S 57 3/8 = 7 snakes
7' 6" W&M Denco- 7 1/8, 16, 27 3/4, 41 7/8, S 60 1/4 = 4 snakes
7'8" Shakespeare- 5, 12 1/2, 21, 30 1/2, 41, 51 3/8, S 61 1/4 = 6 snakes
Rods are 5-6 wt progressive actions and all work fine for me.


Last edited by Trev on 11 Jun 2020, 07:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Post 11 Jun 2020, 02:14 • #17 
Sport
Joined: 03/28/16
Posts: 88
Location: Italy
Anyway these are the different space guiding from the official CTS and Epic web page
CTS are 7 + stripping + tip
Epic are 8 + stripping + tip



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Post 24 Jun 2020, 12:33 • #18 
New Member
Joined: 06/24/20
Posts: 5
It totally depends on your rod.
Every one is different in how it flexes.
Exsmple: I built an 8'6" 6 wt glass rod that has a lot of flex( bends easily, not stiff). After taping and testing guide placement,I found that one stripper guide at 29.5 inches from the butt, a tip top and only 4 guides for a total of 6 worked the best( for this rod). The guide charts you see are a General guide..
I prefer as few guide as possible. Less friction.
Another thing. Bend your rod. Mark where the bend stops. Above this point is where guide placement is most critical. This is where the most stress is put on your rod. Rememder, rod guides are not just for guiding your line, they are also for distributing stress on your rod.
Hope this helps


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Post 24 Jun 2020, 12:42 • #19 
New Member
Joined: 06/24/20
Posts: 5
I totally agree. I always use as few guides as I can. I never follow the charts. Thats just me.
Tape on the guides/test, move them around/ test again. I will spend hours getting my guides just right.


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Post 24 Jun 2020, 13:49 • #20 
Guide
Joined: 02/13/16
Posts: 269
Location: US-TX
I just did two similar 7' 3wts and they liked 9 guides better than 8. Smoother flex and almost no slowing down of the rod while normal overhead casting. However they both rollcasted a bit better. I've really tried to work this out in my mind from a physics standpoint, with the many nuances involved and I have a theory. Granted, these differences are probably minute but more pronounced for softer rods or toward the rod tip. Still probably enough to change the feel of a rod.

I think Giogio and Richard hit on this first one, but I look at it based on the 2 separate factors:

1) flex against line pressure (normal casting) - less guides allows more flex due to increased distance between guides with nothing to pull that section of rod into the direction of the pressure (ie distribute the pressure)
2) flex against rod's own weight (wiggle test) - more guides causes more flex due to the increased relative mass allowing the rod to flex against itself

I just can't rationalize that more guides allows more flex while normal overhead casting. I actually think it tightens up that action. The rod may, however, feel softer when you wiggle it, or while rollcasting/lobbing. Not to mention the thing about guide feet and finish causing a stiffer spot. But there's also the dampening factor, and I would expect more guides to affect the rod's ability to recover, if I'm adhering to my own theory.


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Post 24 Jun 2020, 14:45 • #21 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 11/06/17
Posts: 1627
Location: South of Joplin
"I just can't rationalize that more guides allows more flex while normal overhead casting"
You seem to cover that here: " more guides causes more flex due to the increased relative mass"

The increased mass doesn't care if it's overhead, underhand or snap cast, added mass near the tip is always going to cause more flex isn't it? That added flex may be good or bad or it may be off set with reduced flex from the extra wrap winding?


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Post 24 Jun 2020, 15:16 • #22 
Guide
Joined: 02/13/16
Posts: 269
Location: US-TX
I don't know. It may. I see what you're saying but maybe that an extra guide at the tip is not enough added mass relative to the pressure being applied. Whereas an extra guide is noticeable relative to the weight of that section of rod. Like I said... a theory and a lot of nuances.


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