It is currently 25 Apr 2024, 01:39


New Topic Add Reply
Author Message
Post 25 Nov 2019, 13:13 • #1 
Sport
Joined: 01/07/19
Posts: 60
Location: Madison Heights, MI
I'm looking to start my first rod and was wondering the pros and cons of each thread material.

I see a lot of people use silk or nylon, but is there any reason to stay away from polyester or cotton?


Top
  
Quote
Post 25 Nov 2019, 14:40 • #2 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 02/12/16
Posts: 4106
Location: USA-CO
I can't comment on silk, but there's no reason to stay away from polyester. It absorbs less water than does nylon, which has been a problem for me when using water-based color preserver on nylon trim bands. Depending on the brand of thread, a three- to six- wrap band can expand (and loosen) significantly when the CP is applied. I've never seen cotton rod thread, but I'd stay away from it for this reason at least. If you don't use CP, though, this obviously doesn't matter.

Having said that, I haven't used poly on main wraps much, only because I haven't liked the colors as well as those available in nylon.


Top
  
Quote
Post 25 Nov 2019, 14:58 • #3 
Master Guide
Joined: 02/01/12
Posts: 903
Location: Upstate NY
Nylon: easy to wrap, many rod building companies sell it, and many production rod companies use it. Your best bet if your doing you first rod.

Polyester: as far as I know, only one company is offering this type of thread for the rod building community, Fuji, real nice stuff and similar to Nylon. Just as a note, Fuji Size A is slightly larger in Diameter than Size A Nylon, its not much, but I can tell a difference.

Silk: Its not for the novice in my opinion. You need to get the tension of the wraps just right, too much tension and once the finish goes on, it really may not look all that great. Silk also has more "fuzzies" in it than Nylon or Polyester (they have almost none) and to remove these prior to finish, you need to use an Alcohol burner to remove them, singe them off. I say Alcohol burner (DNA, same as camp stove fuel) because it is a very clean burning fuel. Alcohol burners, well they can be dangerous in their own right for obvious reasons, so really use caution if you go down this route. Plenty of the Bamboo builders use them, so they can be safe as long as the operator pays attention to what they are doing. Keep a fire extinguisher handy. Silk is also used when you want your threads to go invisible, White Silk on "clear" Fiberglass and Natural Shade Silk on any other color blank.

Cotton: I do not know of any thread specific to rod building made from Cotton. You can use sewing thread, but this thread has Silicone in it so it will function thru a machine. You must seal this thread with color preserver prior to applying finish. The finish will "pull away" or give what most folks call "fish eyes" to the wrap finish. Best to stay away from Cotton.

As a beginner, get yourself some Size A Nylon. Regular nylon does give a real nice look, especially if you do not use Color Preserver. Just note that the thread will darken a bit, usually 2 shades darker (but this can depend on the base color of the blank you have to). If you want the actual color of the Nylon, just apply some color preserver, but the trade off is that the Nylon will loose some of that luster you'll achieve by not using it, trade off. They do sell NCP Nylon, this thread is "preserved already" and in my opinion, best suited to trim bands. On a full guide wrap, it looks like "flat paint" was used to attach the guides.


Top
  
Quote
Post 25 Nov 2019, 15:25 • #4 
Master Guide
Joined: 06/27/11
Posts: 388
Location: US-OH
Pretty much exactly what wjude said. When starting out, there is less of a learning curve with A nylon than silk IMO. The Fuji poly size A is also very nice.


Top
  
Quote
Post 25 Nov 2019, 16:24 • #5 
Sport
Joined: 08/30/12
Posts: 97
Location: France
Fuji poly NCP will darken much less than nylon. It's nice when you want to get bright colors on dark blanks.


Top
  
Quote
Post 25 Nov 2019, 20:29 • #6 
Sport
Joined: 02/26/18
Posts: 34
wjude wrote:
Silk: Its not for the novice in my opinion. You need to get the tension of the wraps just right, too much tension and once the finish goes on, it really may not look all that great. Silk also has more "fuzzies" in it than Nylon or Polyester (they have almost none) and to remove these prior to finish, you need to use an Alcohol burner to remove them, singe them off. I say Alcohol burner (DNA, same as camp stove fuel) because it is a very clean burning fuel. Alcohol burners, well they can be dangerous in their own right for obvious reasons, so really use caution if you go down this route. Plenty of the Bamboo builders use them, so they can be safe as long as the operator pays attention to what they are doing. Keep a fire extinguisher handy. Silk is also used when you want your threads to go invisible, White Silk on "clear" Fiberglass and Natural Shade Silk on any other color blank.

As a cane rod maker who uses only silk, I have not found it to be quite so problematic. I have never noticed that tension differences affect the final appearance of silk wraps. Silk does darken and change color considerably with the application of finish, so test wraps beforehand are a good idea.

I have never used an alcohol lamp, perhaps because the silk wrapping thread I use (YLI and Kimono) is good quality. I finish my wraps with two coats of dilute epoxy finish, wet sand, and then use two coats of quick drying varnish. The wet sanding removes any fuzzies and/or dust blobs, so I don't worry about them (if at all present) while wrapping.

Before my first time wrapping a rod with silk, I had wrapped only one rod and that was with nylon. I honestly don't remember if that was easier.

Tim


Top
  
Quote
Post 26 Nov 2019, 09:01 • #7 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 06/10/09
Posts: 1655
Location: US-OH
I've never wrapped a rod with nylon - I've always used silk. And like Tim, I've never had a problem with it. I've never needed to use a lamp to burn off fuzzies. I usually use two thin coats of TM Lite but I've also used spar a number of times. I don't use the finest gauge of silk, like gossamer, because I don't see any advantage to it other than maybe for trim bands or totally invisible wraps. Years ago I did a static stretch test comparing nylon to silk and found that nylon stretches way more than silk. Whether that translates into silk giving stronger reinforcement at the female ferrule I don't know - but probably not.


Top
  
Quote
Post 26 Nov 2019, 09:33 • #8 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 04/12/07
Posts: 1296
Location: western Massachusetts
I learned silk for bamboo, and nylon for glass/graphite.

If you read Montague's catalog for 1953, their new fiberglass rods cost more if wrapped with nylon, and less if wrapped in silk. How's that for an inversion?

So, take your choice: natural or man-made, but do use a rod winding thread, and avoid sewing thread no matter how tempting.


Top
  
Quote
Post 26 Nov 2019, 11:06 • #9 
Master Guide
Joined: 02/24/12
Posts: 456
Location: US-MI
I started with bamboo as well using only gossamer silk. If you use good quality silk it is a real pleasure to work with. Not nearly as finicky as perhaps it used to be.


Top
  
Quote
Post 26 Nov 2019, 17:46 • #10 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 04/20/07
Posts: 8933
Location: US-ME
My view would be forget about silk unless you have some cosmetic effect that can only be achieved with it--and there aren't many of those either. There is a reason nylon is the preferred thread in both fly-tying and rodbuilding--ease of use, ease of finish, and durability. Personally, I don't find anything particularly rarified in using silk other than hewing to a beautiful craft.

Of course anyone who prefers it--essentially because it is silk--can use it adeptly or in a process they find rewarding instead of a mistake prone nuisance. The clumsier you are, the poorer your fingertip dexterity, the harder silk is to use. Being clumsy with comprised feel in my fingertips, I don't want to complicate my life using silk.

Having said that, your question is best answered for yourself--mindful of points made from the varied experience described here. If you are starting to build, you want practice anyhow. A rod scrap and some thread are all you need. Get three spools of A nylon in colors about what you want on your build, and three of silk. Practice wrap with each right through to finish coats. You'll be able to notice mistakes or difficulties and whether you are more or less prone to them with one type or the other.

And you will learn to avoid them so that you get a good result whichever type you choose.

After the practice, you'll probably have plenty left for the color and type, nylon or silk, that you are most satisfied with.


Top
  
Quote
Post 27 Nov 2019, 13:54 • #11 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 04/26/06
Posts: 3837
Location: Northeast Of Heaven
Hello
The Problem Isn't Necessarily The Thread But Often How The Thread Reacts When The Finish Is Applied.
I Like Silk And Nylon.
Have used and experimented with every thread you can imagine.
Still Like Silk and Nylon Best.
Tight Lines And Whatever Your Happy To Put Your Name On Loops
Andy M


Top
  
Quote
Post 27 Nov 2019, 15:56 • #12 
Sport
Joined: 01/07/19
Posts: 60
Location: Madison Heights, MI
Thank you all for the great feedback. it is interesting to see the difference of opinion on how silk and nylon are seen as easy or difficult to work with. I had been at the local hobby store and was going to grab some thread to start practicing with when I became inundated with choices of cotton/nylon/polyester, so I appreciate all of you sharing your personal wrapping experience.

I'm going to take whrlpool's advice of getting a couple of silk and nylon threads to start practicing with and see what one ends up being easier to work with.


Top
  
Quote
Post 04 Dec 2019, 09:20 • #13 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19109
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
Cotton rots when wet, silk and polyester don't.
Cotton doesn't have near the strength of either, and of course, silk is the strongest natural fiber extant.
If you look at tire cords for hand-glued bicycle tires (i.e., not vulcanized), silk and polyester are used interchangeably on road tires (at different price points), while cotton linen cord is a less expensive event tire - used once and thrown away.
Probably doesn't relate to rod wrapping, but silk cord is super-fine and soft 1000+ tpi, and polyester is linen size (still fine), 300+/- tpi.


Top
  
Quote
Post 10 Jan 2020, 09:27 • #14 
Sport
Joined: 12/04/11
Posts: 72
Location: US-MI
I have never used silk. I do know that True Temper used silk on their highest grade tubular Steel rods after WWII and Nylon on their 4 lower grades of rods. The wraps on the lower grade rods have held up very well. The wraps on the two highest grade rods, the Dynamic and the Professional which are silk have become brittle and exhibit about a 50% failure rate when used today. The rods in this category that I fish with have all been rewrapped with nylon due to repeated loss of guides both when fishing and removal from the cloth-lined aluminum tubes. I regularly fish with many hollow glass rods from the 50's and 60's and don't believe I've seen any that are not wrapped with Nylon. Not sure, but I'm guessing my 2 Orvis cane rods I bought new in the 60's are also wrapped with nylon.


Top
  
Quote
Post 10 Jan 2020, 14:59 • #15 
Master Guide
Joined: 04/02/14
Posts: 541
Location: US- Northern CO
this is an intestine thread, i think my experience with silk has only been the cheeper stuff and the fuzzies have turned me away from it. perhaps i will buy some more and try again.
i am a big fan of the Fuji threads, all of them have been great and take various finishes nicely.


Top
  
Quote
Post 10 Jan 2020, 16:12 • #16 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 05/19/14
Posts: 3931
Location: USA - Illinois
Bill Sonnett, you are correct, Orvis wraps are nylon.


Top
  
Quote
Post 10 Jan 2020, 16:26 • #17 
Sport
Joined: 12/04/11
Posts: 72
Location: US-MI
The older Orvis I bought in 1964 when I was in college and have been fishing with it now for 55 years and the wraps look as good as when they came from the factory. The rod is a 7&1/2 ft Equinox and is as straight as an arrow and a great caster for everything from a dry fly to a bass popper. By the way, the price in 1964 was $50 delivered.


Top
  
Quote
Post 11 Jan 2020, 20:35 • #18 
Master Guide
Joined: 08/14/06
Posts: 366
Location: US-TN
Silk and nylon will both rot if exposed to water, but nylon will resist it longer. But that's the point: if water is getting into your wraps, then your finish has failed, not the thread. There's way too many pre-1920 bamboo rods, wrapped with silk, that show no evidence of wrap rot because their finishes are intact. Why would you fish a rod with compromised finish? Or why would you build a rod with a substandard finish in the first place?

--Rich


Top
  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  

New Topic Add Reply



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Alasgun and 20 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Google
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group