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Post 22 Jan 2019, 18:47 • #1 
Sport
Joined: 01/21/19
Posts: 25
Location: Sweden, Blekinge
Hi. Firstly my english might suffer from not being my prefered language.

This topic is regarding old time rod blanks. And could have ended up in the spinning section of the forum.

I'd read a book from 1960 called "The Science of Modern Spin Fishing" by Erne St. Claire

In the book Erne gives instructions to build the ideal spinning rod, intended to perform some really elegant casting technique, for 1/16 - 1/4 ounce lures. The blank would be a 8 1/2 ' fly rod blank, later cut down to something like 6 1/2 - 6 foot.
However, i found his specs hard to interpret.

He writes "there is no stock spinning rod blanks now being made with "full bow" action.... The finest blank for this purpose is a two piece, eight and one-half foot, tubular glass fly rod blank (dry fly action)."

"Full-bow" action is what he calls when the balance of the rod is between tip action and butt action, i.e. the rod bends "like an achery bow".
Later he defines the diameter of the blank being 5/64 in tip and 32/64 in the butt.

So he does not mention anything about what line weight the rod would be intended for, and that's, as far as i've understand, one of the key information when defining blanks today.

And I'd promise a question.
Does anyone know what line weight could have been said to be suitable for a rod like this 60s blank:
*Length 8'6"
*Tip 5/64
*Butt 32/64


Last edited by guldhamstern on 25 Jan 2019, 18:22, edited 2 times in total.

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Post 22 Jan 2019, 19:22 • #2 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 11/06/17
Posts: 1626
Location: South of Joplin
welcome to the forum, guldhamstern


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Post 23 Jan 2019, 08:49 • #3 
Sport
Joined: 01/21/19
Posts: 25
Location: Sweden, Blekinge
Thank you Trev.


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Post 23 Jan 2019, 11:38 • #4 
Master Guide
Joined: 04/27/07
Posts: 614
Location: Missouri
Guess I don't understand your question, you want to turn a 8'6" flyrod blank into a spinning rod but you don't know what line the rod would use? The ferrule size for the butt section is fairly large but I would bet the rod would use a 12-15 lb line. Would really depend upon the type of blank or other factors, I suggest you build one see how it fishes and make changes to the rod to meet your needs.


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Post 23 Jan 2019, 12:57 • #5 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 11/06/17
Posts: 1626
Location: South of Joplin
I think you want to know what rod St. Claire used?

As a guess given the time frame, rod length and lure weights, I would say a 5 weight, maybe, but what ever it was is no longer made so I suggest starting with the maximum lure weight to be used and determining the blank choice from that.

Joe Robinson author of "Piscatorial Absurdities" (a book said to be inspired by Erne St. Claire) in a video demostration of some advanced ultralight casts on a rod made from a 2 weight fly rod. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpxWurslYxk


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Post 23 Jan 2019, 13:53 • #6 
Sport
Joined: 01/21/19
Posts: 25
Location: Sweden, Blekinge
Hi, oldschoolcane.
You got it partly wright, what i'm after, ultimately i want to know what blank to use. But as Trev said, i want to figure what kind of blank Erne St. Claire refers to in the book.
12-15 lb would sound like 10 lb to much in my ears.
Maybe the fiberglass rods in those days had less stiffnes in relation to diameter in general?

Trev:
That video is awesome and the reason i get to reading St. Claries book.
Guess Joe's rod are lighter.
So if i'd go for Ernes maximum lure weight, 1/4 ounce, how would i determining which blank to use?
Then i've understand that the suggested line weight is not a standardized science.


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Post 23 Jan 2019, 23:05 • #7 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 11/06/17
Posts: 1626
Location: South of Joplin
You could find a AFFTA Standard Line Chart and work out the conversions, or search "fly blank as spin rod".
I would simply try casting a lure on 2wt-4wt rods and see what works. If you can obtain a copy of Robinson's book it would be more up to date than St Claire's. I think he used 3wts as well as the 2wt demonstrated.
Retitling the thread as "What blank matches Erne St Claire build" might make your query plainer.
Good luck.


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Post 24 Jan 2019, 10:18 • #8 
Guide
Joined: 09/22/14
Posts: 191
Location: Charlottesville-VA
Hmm. I have a 8' and 7.5' Phillipson Eponite rods that are both Dry Fly Action and both are rated as as 6wt. When I get home I can try to take some tip measurements for you.

From another forum, here are some measurements for a Phillipson bamboo dry fly special taper: http://classicflyrodforum.com/forum/vie ... =68&t=2524

It looks like the DFS is a little stiffer in the mid maybe? So perhaps a more "Moderate" action 6wt in modern terms?

Bob


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Post 24 Jan 2019, 11:46 • #9 
Master Guide
Joined: 04/27/07
Posts: 614
Location: Missouri
The fiberglass rods in those days? I am not sure what rods your referring to but if your talking about the glass rods from the 50 and 60's then the newer glass blanks that we have currently are definitely different than what was available originally. So, maybe you need to determine what type of blank was being used? 1/4 ounce lures aren't real heavy but the blank and how it was made and the company that made it can be quite different between brands of rods.


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Post 24 Jan 2019, 13:47 • #10 
Sport
Joined: 01/21/19
Posts: 25
Location: Sweden, Blekinge
oldschoolcane:
What's annoing is that the only specifications of the rod is the tip and butt diameter, the length, the material (tubular fiberglass) and the ability to bend the same over the whole length span. Wich would be the same as slow action?
What i ment was, that i got the impression that a rod with the dimensions that was mentioned (5/64 in tip & 32/64 in butt) sounds like a sturdy rod, but the materials generally in those days (late 50s) made a softer rod for lighter lines. This is was i presumed.

bob138
That would be very nice of you. And the interesting thing (for me at least) would be to be what dimensions would lead to a certain wt.
#6 is heavier than i thought at first.

Guess that's i'll have some trial and error before me, 2wt - 6wt.
Thanks for all the advices.


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Post 24 Jan 2019, 16:13 • #11 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 02/12/16
Posts: 3688
Location: USA-CO
I don't know if this helps, but the E-glass spin/fly blank from Jann's Netcraft is 8', with a 5/64" tip and .437" butt. It's suggested for 5/6wt line or steelhead spinning lures, which I'd guess would be on the heavier side. I don't know about its flex profile. 6wt sounds like possibly in the range for a blank of 8'6", 5/64 tip. and .5" butt end.

https://www.jannsnetcraft.com/fiberglas ... 00009.aspx


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Post 25 Jan 2019, 05:19 • #12 
Sport
Joined: 01/21/19
Posts: 25
Location: Sweden, Blekinge
Actually, i'd consider that netcraft fly/spin blank. But was afraid it was to stiff. But it's cheap so i might ass well try it.
It is, i think, some mix of glass and graphite.


Last edited by guldhamstern on 25 Jan 2019, 18:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Post 25 Jan 2019, 13:38 • #13 
Guide
Joined: 01/11/17
Posts: 203
Location: Missouri Ozarks
Welcome aboard Guldhamstern. Your English is fine. From your original post I see you start with an 8 & 1/2 ft. fly rod and cut it down to a 6 or 6.5 ft. spinning rod. Depending on where you cut the blank will determine a great deal with the action of the final rod. In other words, depending on the original action of the fly rod, if you cut from the butt end only you will probably create a softer action. If you cut from the tip end only, your final rod will have a stiffer action and you'll increase the diameter of your tip. Cutting from both ends may be the best alternative, but this will depend on the original taper of the rod. You may need to experiment, which could result in cutting more than one fly rod until you find your desired action. Sorry if this creates more confusion, but it's something to take into consideration.

Best of luck with your endeavor.


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Post 25 Jan 2019, 21:39 • #14 
Guide
Joined: 02/25/08
Posts: 161
Location: US-NM
Hi Guldhamstern,
I am assuming you wat to build a fiberglass spinning rod from a rod from "back in the day". Looking at St. Claire's book, he cuts 2 to 2.5 ' off the butt end of the rod. My guess is that starting with a 6 weight, you'd end up with the equivalent of light 5 weight rod. This would mean about a 0.320 oz lure weight on the upper end. I'm sure you could cast half that weight pretty easily. Probably even down to 0.125 (1/8) oz. Rods from the day could be Fenwicks , Philippsons, and Heddons in the 8 to 8.5 range. I might even try a 7.5' rod, cutting 1.5 ' from the butt. The Netcraft blank would probably be the easiest, however.

Good luck and keep us posted


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Post 26 Jan 2019, 02:45 • #15 
Sport
Joined: 01/21/19
Posts: 25
Location: Sweden, Blekinge
Baldknobber1 wrote:
. Depending on where you cut the blank will determine a great deal with the action of the final rod. In other words, depending on the original action of the fly rod, if you cut from the butt end only you will probably create a softer action. If you cut from the tip end only, your final rod will have a stiffer action and you'll increase the diameter of your tip..


Good you brought this up! That was actually one question i forget to ask =) Erne did cut in the butt end.


Rio Seco wrote:
. Hi Guldhamstern,
I am assuming you wat to build a fiberglass spinning rod from a rod from "back in the day"..


My aim is to find an equivalent new blank. I think i try the fly/spin from netcraft and one of Jann's two piece graphite blanks, guess 3wt.

A more expensive alternative would be lamiglas honey, but maybe they're too weak...

Another thought i have, how much does it inflict the action, to have a three piece rod?
Usability-wise, it would have it's benefits.


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Post 26 Jan 2019, 21:25 • #16 
Guide
Joined: 02/25/08
Posts: 161
Location: US-NM
I built an Extreme ultralight rod from a 6'6" blank off of ebay. I don't even know the blank maker but it is a good rod that I can use for spin or fly. I built it per the instructions in Joe Robinson's book "Piscatorial Absurdities". Just added one more guide.

I think the Lamiglas honey would be fine, strength wise.

Yeah, a three piece, at least to me, is a plus and I don't feel the extra ferrule hinders the action that much.


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Post 26 Jan 2019, 22:36 • #17 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 11/06/17
Posts: 1626
Location: South of Joplin
Rio Seco, Is Robinson's book still available?

Fly line at 60-70 feet in the air puts quite a stress on the rod, so I'd think any glass rod 2wt and up would have plenty of strength.
What I would do with any blank before cutting it is to tape on guides and a reel and try some practice plug casting- this would tell the ability of the blank to do what you want. the reel can still be moved to give best balance and function- once cut there is no backing up. If a blank does not work in the temporary mock up, uncut it can still be used as a fly rod or passed on to someone else.
I do think I would try to obtain a one piece blank so that I did not end up with unequal parts. Cutting the ferrules in after the total length has been cut back to desired length.


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Post 27 Jan 2019, 14:33 • #18 
Guide
Joined: 09/22/14
Posts: 191
Location: Charlottesville-VA
My phillipson 8' Dry fly special measures about 2mm right below the tip top.

Bob


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Post 27 Jan 2019, 21:22 • #19 
Guide
Joined: 02/25/08
Posts: 161
Location: US-NM
I bought my copy at Sportsman's Finest in Austin, TX, (512)263-1888. Google says they'll open Tuesday at 10 AM.


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Post 28 Jan 2019, 06:00 • #20 
New Member
Joined: 05/31/15
Posts: 2
Location: US-NC
Coincidentally, i’ve got a rod that closely resembles Mr. St. Claire’s rod.

I’ve also got both Robinson’s book, and St. Claire’s book, to compare the rod as described in the book and what I have in possession.

Also, I’ve included a link to St. Claire’s book available as a scanned copy online, available here, as a download via pdf file - https://www.docdroid.net/Pbm2TlH/the-mo ... ishing.pdf

I also have recently obtained what appears to be either one of Mr. St.Caire’s rods as described in the book or someone has made a considrrable effort to replicate the rod as described in the book.

I’ve already tried to find a way to post pictures, but I am having some trouble getting them to post (and I did read the post about how to use Photobucket, for which I thought I had an account, now they want me to sign up to pay for access).

Going over the rod, things seem to line up as per the book, with the exception of the configuration of the foregrip.

What is curious to me is that this appears to most certainly been built on a commercial rod blank, a fiberglass Silaflex blank.

I have several Silaflex rods that had built on Silflex blanks, and the finish looks identical. (Several of the pics show the Silflex logo along with the seahorse trademark on the blank and the blank number) I’ve been trying to find what this blank is, and that’s when found this post.

The number on the rod is BCT3RF, positioned directly below the logo.

Does anyone have a reference as to what might have been what the blank is?

BTW, this rod has one butt section and two tops, where the tips are longer than the butt section.

When I figure out how to post the pics, and get a full length, assembled pic, along with dimensions, hopefully in the next day or so, I’ll do so.


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Post 28 Jan 2019, 13:58 • #21 
Sport
Joined: 01/21/19
Posts: 25
Location: Sweden, Blekinge
bob138 wrote:
My phillipson 8' Dry fly special measures about 2mm right below the tip top.

Bob


Great! So that's about 5/64

Rio Seco wrote:
I bought my copy at Sportsman's Finest in Austin, TX, (512)263-1888. Google says they'll open Tuesday at 10 AM.


I mailed Sportman's Finest some weeks ago, and Piscatorial Absurdities is out of stock. What was even more of a dissapointment for me is that they don't ship outside of the u.s.a. anyways.

A three piece would be highly portable.
waterone wrote:
Coincidentally, i’ve got a rod that closely resembles Mr. St. Claire’s rod.

I’ve also got both Robinson’s book, and St. Claire’s book, to compare the rod as described in the book and what I have in possession.

Also, I’ve included a link to St. Claire’s book available as a scanned copy online, available here, as a download via pdf file - https://www.docdroid.net/Pbm2TlH/the-mo ... ishing.pdf

I also have recently obtained what appears to be either one of Mr. St.Caire’s rods as described in the book or someone has made a considrrable effort to replicate the rod as described in the book.

I’ve already tried to find a way to post pictures, but I am having some trouble getting them to post (and I did read the post about how to use Photobucket, for which I thought I had an account, now they want me to sign up to pay for access).

Going over the rod, things seem to line up as per the book, with the exception of the configuration of the foregrip.

What is curious to me is that this appears to most certainly been built on a commercial rod blank, a fiberglass Silaflex blank.

I have several Silaflex rods that had built on Silflex blanks, and the finish looks identical. (Several of the pics show the Silflex logo along with the seahorse trademark on the blank and the blank number) I’ve been trying to find what this blank is, and that’s when found this post.

The number on the rod is BCT3RF, positioned directly below the logo.

Does anyone have a reference as to what might have been what the blank is?

BTW, this rod has one butt section and two tops, where the tips are longer than the butt section.

When I figure out how to post the pics, and get a full length, assembled pic, along with dimensions, hopefully in the next day or so, I’ll do so.


Cool! Have you tried the rods?
Looking forward to see the pictures.


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Post 28 Jan 2019, 22:16 • #22 
Guide
Joined: 02/25/08
Posts: 161
Location: US-NM
The silaflex blank might be a good bet for St. Claire's 1/16 to 1/4 ounce criteria. I would also like to see those photos.


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Post 28 Jan 2019, 23:26 • #23 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 11/06/17
Posts: 1626
Location: South of Joplin
Silaflex BCT3RF might a factory run
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/292887385745


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Post 29 Jan 2019, 02:58 • #24 
New Member
Joined: 05/31/15
Posts: 2
Location: US-NC
Trev, that’s the rod I purchased.

Even though I can’t get Photbucket to recognize my login info, I’ll still try to post some pics.

Some interesting facts:

The butt section is 30” in length.
The tips (2) are 51” in length.
The ferrules appear to be high quality nickel-silver, similar to one I’ve seen on higher quality rods

The tips are identical, except one tip-top is tungsten carbide and the other chrome plated, they are much larger than what would be expected for an Ultralight rod.
The guides are all on the tips, non on the butt.

There are four guides, all wire guides. The guides don’t appear to be Aetna Foulproof, but the wire guides are as shown in the pics higher than normal Foulproof guides if one was build a modern version of this rod as per St.Claire’s reasoning, modern single foot guides with inserts would make far more sense.

The action is definatley Ultralight, but not a real light UL rod.
It does posses a “full-action” describing a “C” while appearing to have what looks to me like a slight parabola. It seems to have a good amount of power in the butt.

I forgot to measure the length when assembled, and dismantling the rod is pretty difficult, due to apparent oxidation of the ferrules, until I’ve addressed the oxidation, I’m wary of re-assembly, even with a calculated length of 6’8” assembled, there is enough tolerance stacking to suggest the blank was 6’ 5” in length.
I wanted to find a suitable location to photograph the full length of the rod.

I pointed out some salient points, above as they seem to reflect the points that St. Claire has made about his design. So the rod is EXTREMLEY close to the rod as written in the book.

One of my favorite UL Rods (as I also use it as a 3 weight fly rod) is the TFO FWSF 601 UL, and the action is noticalbly heavier than either this graphite rod or one of the equivelent Fiberglas Rods.
Rant over.

Anyway, I’ll find a way to post the pics.


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Post 10 Feb 2019, 14:49 • #25 
Sport
Joined: 01/21/19
Posts: 25
Location: Sweden, Blekinge
So, I was ready to try that 2pc 8' fly/spin blank from janns netcraft. At 21.99 $ it was a no brainer. But i did change my mind upon realizing shipping was 89$. So just ordered the smaller parts from there.

Don't know how good an idea it was to go for a modern touch and try the Airwave guides. Erne St. Claire recommend no more than four guides plus a tip top for a 6' rod. The microwave system recommend 9 guides for a 7' (my 5'6" are fitted with 7 microwave guides + tip top).
Guess more guides does inflict the action.
I would gladly accept some guidance in the subject. What does Piscatorial Absurdities say about guides?

The blanks i found in europe is as 3pc 6'6" 3wt called yellow river.
And i will probably go for a 2pc 7'6" 4wt called Tempes, made by a polish company called fishingart.

Since this is my first build it seems stupid to not go for the cheapest possible, but to import cheap blanks from u.s. also seems stupid. So the costs are still not so much higher from "cheapest possible" from my point of view.
To be continued... Markus

Ps. Maybe this thread or a new one must end up at the spinning section.


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