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Wrapping a glass blank.
Post 15 Apr 2017, 17:52 • #1 
Guide
Joined: 06/22/14
Posts: 128
Location: MN.
Okay, pretty much a newfer here as I've only wrapped one bamboo blank and just began on a glass blank and having some slight issues. I do have a good understanding on the technique to begin/end etc but I have issues with wraps coming loose that I've not found before.

How do you folks keep your wraps tight and such as you go to begin or end after 5-6 overwraps? Mine all come undone after just a wee bit of burnishing, almost like you can hardly touch 'em...

I know I'm inexperienced and there's the "feel" that comes with practice but I'm quite handy with my hands but this is driving me goofy!

Glass is so slippery compared to any past experiences. Am I missing out on something obvious?

Any suggestions will be appreciated, thanks.

Jeremy.


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Post 15 Apr 2017, 18:26 • #2 
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Joined: 04/20/07
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Location: US-ME
Assuming you are right-handed, thumb pressure just to the right of where the thread begins to wrap on the blank. ;If they are coming loose after completed, the wraps are too loose to begin with. In general, the wraps should be just snug, such that they can be nudged/burnished and the guide nudged into final alignment if need be. Thread tension just enough to lay down the thread evenly is about right. But the first starter wraps before climbing on to the foot can be tighter. This will help keep the tag end in place and reduce the slipping you are dealing with.


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Post 15 Apr 2017, 19:25 • #3 
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Joined: 06/22/14
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Location: MN.
Thanks whrlpool that was much appreciated. I'll modify my efforts!! Funny how clumsy I'm feeling, I'm not used to that!

Jeremy.


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Post 17 Apr 2017, 04:44 • #4 
Master Guide
Joined: 11/28/15
Posts: 378
Location: US-NC
I wrap several (6 or more) turns over the tag than I want up to the guide foot. Then I start gently pulling out the tag around the rod until I get the number of turns I want. This helps to tighten the wraps and pull them together at the same time. Then I wrap a few more turns before cutting the tag. All wraps are done in the same direction, which in my case is left to right for all guides on the section, then reverse the blank to wrap the other foot on all guides in the same direction.

BB


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Post 17 Apr 2017, 12:01 • #5 
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Joined: 01/02/12
Posts: 1859
Location: Gig Harbor, WA
When finishing the wrap, make sure the tag end is pulled under enough wraps to hold it tight. You'll get the hang of it in no time.


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Post 17 Apr 2017, 20:00 • #6 
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Joined: 06/22/14
Posts: 128
Location: MN.
bvandeuson wrote:
I wrap several (6 or more) turns over the tag than I want up to the guide foot. Then I start gently pulling out the tag around the rod until I get the number of turns I want. This helps to tighten the wraps and pull them together at the same time. Then I wrap a few more turns before cutting the tag. All wraps are done in the same direction, which in my case is left to right for all guides on the section, then reverse the blank to wrap the other foot on all guides in the same direction.

BB



BB, thanks, that's a pretty good suggestion. Never considered that one. Since the Easter holiday and some contractor work being done on the house I've not been able to get back downstairs but these hints should give me more resolve.

I was beginning to talk to myself for a bit...


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Post 18 Apr 2017, 01:34 • #7 
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Joined: 09/02/05
Posts: 193
Location: US-CA
What kind of thread are you using? If your first was a bamboo, you probably used silk. If you switched it up for the fiberglass, the thread could be an issue too. I tried wrapping with nylon Fuji thread last year (in black) and it was so slippery, it drove me crazy. Went back to my normal thread and everything was fine.

eric
fresno, ca.


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Post 18 Apr 2017, 12:28 • #8 
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Joined: 06/22/14
Posts: 128
Location: MN.
Eric, I'm using YLI 100 silks as that's what I ordered for some bamboo projects.

Thank you.


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Post 18 Apr 2017, 19:10 • #9 
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Joined: 09/18/09
Posts: 5561
Location: Relocated to the Drought Stricken West.
Silk is a pain. Too much pressure and it breaks, It actually works best with fairly loose wraps. I start like bvandeuson, four to six or so tight wraps, that are not necessarily well packed. then as I progress , I pull on the tag end, keeping the tension on it as it sucks the end of your wrap up. then getting over the guide foot requires loosening the tension a lot, but the wrap is already locked in. I then cut the tag off and wrap forward. On the other end, I give myself a pull through that has a lot of room, at least 10 wraps, and most of the wrap is done under low tension (when using silk) and then a bit more tension for the last few wraps.

If you think silk is bad, try doing two turn trim bands with metalic thread.

In general, size a nylon is a lot easier to work with. It just holds better and climbes the guide feet better.

Good luck.


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Post 18 Apr 2017, 19:25 • #10 
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Joined: 10/30/14
Posts: 326
Location: Cayuga, Ontario, Canada
carlz wrote:
If you think silk is bad, try doing two turn trim bands with metalic thread.


I have done one spinning rod with metallic thread at a friend's request. Blue metallic wraps with red accents. I hated it and will avoid it if at all possible again. I found it springy, easy to damage the coating, and did not like the look. That rod would have looked 10 times better with NCP thread.


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Post 18 Apr 2017, 20:11 • #11 
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Joined: 06/22/14
Posts: 128
Location: MN.
Carl, I've only done one rod in my life and that was a cane rod with Gossamer silk. The spool in a coffee cup and the thread run thru the pages of a book! Had little trouble and it turned out quite well according to a few builders around here as well as myself!

This stuff, it's getting to me but I'll just be patient. Yeah, I actually broke the thread today and that surprised me! I'm fairly handy, I make older style furniture in another hobby, with hand-cut joinery but...this stuff is testing me.

I'm realizing there's an art to everything and maybe I shouldn't say "I'm good with my hands" anymore... It's humbling. I need it!! I managed one guide in a short session today but it's not pretty!


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Post 19 Apr 2017, 05:13 • #12 
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Joined: 04/20/07
Posts: 8920
Location: US-ME
Stay with it. I have such poor feel in my fingertips I can barely tie flies anymore except for larger sizes. Never realized you were talking silk for your wraps so there are other tips above to pay attention to. Forty years ago or so I found silk such a nuisance for flies or rods--and I was a bit more coordinated back then--that I gave it up without hardly trying. Size A nylon is easier, or size OO if you can find it. Guys who still use both could say better than me, but I think if learning today, it would be easier to start with nylon and then, having gotten the hang of it, "graduate" to silk.


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Post 19 Apr 2017, 05:52 • #13 
Master Guide
Joined: 11/28/15
Posts: 378
Location: US-NC
My thread tension is controlled at the spools, and see no need to change it during a wrap as suggested above. It is important to have the ends of the guide feet filed or ground right down to a fine edge without burrs to get the thread to walk up onto them properly. I use one of those battery-powered Berkley line removers that uses a small grindstone running against a rubber roller to pull old line from a reel as my foot grinder. It runs slow enough to ensure good control, and an old nylon stocking to test for burrs

If you have difficulty pulling the loop thread out from under the wraps at the end, it's too tight. Also, too much tension flattens the thread, giving an uneven appearance.

BB


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Post 19 Apr 2017, 11:32 • #14 
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Joined: 06/22/14
Posts: 128
Location: MN.
Thanks boys, this is all much appreciated and I made note of it.

whrlpool I feel for you. I'm 67 (really??? It's odd just admitting that aloud.) and I'm finding life changes much that wasn't expected. That's also humbling! Your chiming in here is very appreciated.

BB I did realize my Snakes do have more of a step on them than I would like. I have lots of stones/sharpening eqpt. avail. so I used a med. ceramic stone to dust off the top of the remaining feet to lessen the bump. I can tell too. I didn't think I'd need to do that with Snakes! No sweat, it's part of the fun and no trouble.

I'll just have more respect for rod-makers from here on in!! *Grins*

My snow-blower is put to sleep so today comes round two. I'm sure it'll be fun and rewarding! I "used to be" good with my hands.


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Post 19 Apr 2017, 15:39 • #15 
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Joined: 06/22/14
Posts: 128
Location: MN.
Today's efforts are going a good bit better!!

Got the mid section done and it's "okay"...not great buy OK. I've learned a couple obvious "cheater" (can I say that?) hints to help me along and they help. Like lifting the section off the supports a tad, on the initial wraps (as in varying pressure) and spin the blank down to them. That helps with slippage and to get a neater tuck on the end...just need to be careful.

Also to slip the end to be clipped underneath a tag of tape holding the other foot on. That helps keep it off to the side for beginning the wrap and eliminates that miserable reach over/behind and all the issues that gives! All good help!

A query - what size dia. burnisher do you guys prefer? I have a 1/8" dia. polished piece of 3" long rod that helps but find I go to my bodkin often too. Too small/too large???

Thank you again. It's going better but I'm a slow learner!


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Post 19 Apr 2017, 20:56 • #16 
Master Guide
Joined: 12/31/13
Posts: 519
Location: US-Mount Pleasant, SC
Jeremy,

Stick with the YLI 100wt. There's something magical about silk, and you're a cane guy so tradition must appeal to you. You wrapping on a sanded or unhanded blank? Unhanded is definitely a little more tricky, and not all unhanded blanks have the same depth or spacing of ribs. Though I am a big fan of McFarland tapers, the ribs on his raw glass are big enough to lose a child inside. If you want, send me a message on the face books and I'll show you a few videos of wrapping.

Use an agate burnishing tool, rinse with alcohol between uses.

Marty


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Post 20 Apr 2017, 04:02 • #17 
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Joined: 11/28/15
Posts: 378
Location: US-NC
My burnisher is a tool from my leather working, meant to help add definition to the tooling. Any very smooth, hard and polished curved surface of appropriate size works. I've heard of guys using small dessert spoons.

The mention of cleaning with alcohol brings up an important point...cleanliness. I wrapped a rod that showed a few "fisheyes" in the finish. Turned out I had cleaned my glasses in the middle of the wrapping process with a silicone cloth and my fingers transferred silicone to the work. I've learned to wash my hands with a little dish detergent before handling thread spools or applying finish, and I wipe the blank with alcohol before starting.

BB


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Post 20 Apr 2017, 18:28 • #18 
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Joined: 06/22/14
Posts: 128
Location: MN.
Well, in closing, thanks to all who helped me with some queries. I did finish the rod, all 3 sections and learned a good bit.

My concern now is whether or not to go back and undo/re-do some of the wraps since some are a tad longer than others even though I tried to keep them even. It was a bit of a struggle so I'm not keen on that much but...you know how it is. I have to look at my work for a long time.

The silks are white which means they'll finish to clear so "maybe" redoing them isn't totally needed...??....thinking out loud here. As much as I hate to, I'm likely going to have to clean a few up but I'm not looking forward to that. I know it'll bug me if I don't though, dangit.

I thought I was doing pretty good after doing the butt section and then the mid. Then I got onto that little tip - you know how that went!!

Thanks again for the input. I mean that!


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Post 20 Apr 2017, 19:07 • #19 
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Joined: 09/18/09
Posts: 5561
Location: Relocated to the Drought Stricken West.
Jeremy wrote:
My concern now is whether or not to go back and undo/re-do some of the wraps since some are a tad longer than others even though I tried to keep them even. It was a bit of a struggle so I'm not keen on that much but...you know how it is. I have to look at my work for a long time.

The silks are white which means they'll finish to clear so "maybe" redoing them isn't totally needed...??....thinking out loud here. As much as I hate to, I'm likely going to have to clean a few up but I'm not looking forward to that. I know it'll bug me if I don't though, dangit.



My advise, rewrap the section. I don't follow my own advise half the time. The rod will fish fine, but if it is going to bother you, re-do it now.

So are you using bright white silk or a natural/tan like #214. Bright white has the tendency to turn blueish.
I look forward to seeing pictures of the finished product.


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Post 20 Apr 2017, 20:38 • #20 
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Joined: 06/22/14
Posts: 128
Location: MN.
carlz wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
My concern now is whether or not to go back and undo/re-do some of the wraps since some are a tad longer than others even though I tried to keep them even. It was a bit of a struggle so I'm not keen on that much but...you know how it is. I have to look at my work for a long time.

The silks are white which means they'll finish to clear so "maybe" redoing them isn't totally needed...??....thinking out loud here. As much as I hate to, I'm likely going to have to clean a few up but I'm not looking forward to that. I know it'll bug me if I don't though, dangit.



My advise, rewrap the section. I don't follow my own advise half the time. The rod will fish fine, but if it is going to bother you, re-do it now.

So are you using bright white silk or a natural/tan like #214. Bright white has the tendency to turn blueish.
I look forward to seeing pictures of the finished product.


Carl, I'm using YLI 100 in #212 white which I believe will turn clear with Flex-lite and DA mixed. I'll find out.

I do think I'll rewrap the portions that are a bit longer than the rest although they aren't terribly bad, just enough to bug me.
You guys likely wouldn't think twice about it! I didn't wanna post pics but I will when it's done.

I'm fishing tomorrow. A Payne 100 from the 30's, a real one. First time out with her for me.


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Post 20 Apr 2017, 20:59 • #21 
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Joined: 09/18/09
Posts: 5561
Location: Relocated to the Drought Stricken West.
Yes, 212 (I got mixed up) As long as it isn't "White".

Good luck on the finish. Getting a great finish has been a long journey for me and I'm not there yet. I have the most problem with trying to get a transparent finish with silk.

And enjoy fishing the Payne. That sounds wonderful.


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Post 21 Apr 2017, 05:08 • #22 
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Joined: 04/20/07
Posts: 8920
Location: US-ME
I would probably do it again but first I would consider ""striving to better, oft we mar what's well," Shakespeare's thought seen in many other philosophical aphorisms with their own independent origins, as in "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good."


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Post 21 Apr 2017, 22:40 • #23 
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Joined: 06/22/14
Posts: 128
Location: MN.
whrlpool wrote:
I would probably do it again but first I would consider ""striving to better, oft we mar what's well," Shakespeare's thought seen in many other philosophical aphorisms with their own independent origins, as in "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good."


Thanks whrlpool, I see your point quite well and appreciate the perspective. If it didn't look so ratty up close I'd let it be...


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Post 23 Apr 2017, 00:26 • #24 
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Joined: 06/23/05
Posts: 4966
Location: US-MT
My fav saying.

Excellence does not require Perfection.


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Post 24 Apr 2017, 05:30 • #25 
Master Guide
Joined: 11/28/15
Posts: 378
Location: US-NC
One more little tip...you'll notice that as snake guides get smaller, the feet on them get shorter. You mentioned a problem maintaining wrap length. I put the same number of turns on the blank before climbing the guide foot, usually 4 to 6 depending on blank and thread size. What happens is that as the guides get smaller, the wraps automatically get shorter, giving a nice balanced appearance. Of course the wraps have to end at the same place relative to where the loop rises from the foot. Notice I didn't say anything about measuring the length of the wraps. It just seems to work out for me.

BB


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