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Post 01 Oct 2016, 21:37 • #1 
Guide
Joined: 02/06/15
Posts: 160
Location: Colorful Colorado
I give up!

For the life of me I can not seem to figure out how to get rid of the air gap along the guide feet with varnish even using low pro Snake Guides. I can do it easy with epoxy but it feels like I'm being taunted by ManOWar and I refuse to give up!

What's the secret?


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Post 01 Oct 2016, 22:04 • #2 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 09/18/09
Posts: 5561
Location: Relocated to the Drought Stricken West.
1) don't thin the varnish
2) heat the varnish
3) There is some trick to adding a bit as it dries (adding a second coat fairly quickly) or keeping it wet for a while and then wicking the execess away, but I don't have this part figured out.

I don't usually get tunnels, but I do end up with too much varnish on my 2nd or 3rd coats, so I am not an expert at varnish. Poly varnish seems to be much easier for me than the oil based type. I think I need to work on figuring out the drying time between coats better.


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Post 01 Oct 2016, 23:36 • #3 
Guide
Joined: 02/06/15
Posts: 160
Location: Colorful Colorado
Interesting thanks Carl! I've been wondering if heating the varnish might be the trick but I definitely don't thin anything.

I found a post from Shane, I think it was, from a few years ago where he said the drying time seems to get longer between coats. Like 4 hours then 12 hours then the next day or something like that. Whatever he does it sure seems to work!


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Post 02 Oct 2016, 05:10 • #4 
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Joined: 04/20/07
Posts: 8920
Location: US-ME
Varnish soaks into the thread so the thin protective finish is in them, not on them, except for finish coats. There is no need to fill the tunnels, especially with a product designed to work best in thin, flexible layers. Varnish that won't blob up under there is telling you something. If it did, it would just crack and check later. Filled space under the guide is a cosmetic adaptation many have come to expect as it is seen with epoxy finishes, making a virtue of necessity.


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Post 02 Oct 2016, 05:32 • #5 
Master Guide
Joined: 11/28/15
Posts: 378
Location: US-NC
carlz wrote:
1) don't thin the varnish
2) heat the varnish
3) There is some trick to adding a bit as it dries (adding a second coat fairly quickly) or keeping it wet for a while and then wicking the execess away, but I don't have this part figured out.

I don't usually get tunnels, but I do end up with too much varnish on my 2nd or 3rd coats, so I am not an expert at varnish. Poly varnish seems to be much easier for me than the oil based type. I think I need to work on figuring out the drying time between coats better.


"figuring out the drying time" There's no formula for drying time... varnish dries according to the heat and humidity of the moment. I just wait on it as long as it takes to be dry to the touch before re-coating. After completing the wrap finishing, I give it a couple weeks to cure with varnish. I don't think filling the tunnels is really necessary either, but I do ensure that the guide feet are as flat down on the blank as possible before wrapping, sometimes a little tweaking is in order.

BB


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Post 02 Oct 2016, 06:39 • #6 
Master Guide
Joined: 06/27/11
Posts: 387
Location: US-OH
What Whrlpool said is spot on.


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Post 02 Oct 2016, 10:44 • #7 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 03/16/08
Posts: 3540
Location: Upstate-NY
agree that an "open tunnel" is fine on a varnished rod.
the beauty of using varnish is the ultra-low build.

if you dont like "tunnels", maybe keep your wraps stopping short of where the guide begins to ramp up?


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Post 02 Oct 2016, 21:01 • #8 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 12/27/14
Posts: 1501
Location: ON, Canada
What Carlz said.
I heat the varnish in a water bath and bring the varnish over to the table still in the hot water. For the first coat I apply enough varnish to thoroughly soak into the thread then remove the excess. Usually I just use my fingertip for this, wiping my finger on a rag as I go. This seems to help me get the varnish into all the nooks and crannies. Usually 4 thin coats applied this way, 4-6 hours apart. Then several days to fully dry before the temptation to test cast my new toy gets the better of me.

I'm using Helmsman (which is a spar urethane) as it's the most available.


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Post 03 Oct 2016, 08:29 • #9 
Guide
Joined: 10/10/13
Posts: 263
Location: Cal-Ore-Vada
Using a good stiff brush and warm varnish has always been good enough for me.


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Post 03 Oct 2016, 09:39 • #10 
Master Guide
Joined: 11/28/15
Posts: 378
Location: US-NC
corlay wrote:
agree that an "open tunnel" is fine on a varnished rod.
the beauty of using varnish is the ultra-low build.

if you dont like "tunnels", maybe keep your wraps stopping short of where the guide begins to ramp up?


Good point. There's no need to wrap past where the guide starts rising.

Low build can be gotten with epoxy, too. Use a "lite" epoxy or thin with xylene and use like varnish.

BB


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Post 03 Oct 2016, 12:51 • #11 
Master Guide
Joined: 04/15/06
Posts: 804
Location: Fayetteville, NC
One more vote for what Whrlpool said. Varnished rods look "right" with thin finish and open tunnels. To minimize the opening, though, never wrap past the flat portion of the guide foot (on snake guides). Wrapping over the round wire will definitely leave you with noticeable tunnels.


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Post 03 Oct 2016, 13:23 • #12 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 04/02/13
Posts: 1173
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Open tunnels look horrible on any modern rod. But that's just my preference.

I heat a small amount of varnish (one of the small plastic mixing cups that rod building suppliers sell) in a microwave just to the point of being warm. Then I take one of those butter warmers that people use when serving crab or lobster... The kind with a candle below and a porcelain tub/ramekin on top. I fill the tub partly with hot water and drop the cup of varnish in that. The flame keeps the water/varnish at just the right temp.

Then I use a needle (or bodkin) to apply the varnish. Works wonderfully and I've never had air bubbles or open tunnels.

Here's a great video showing how to apply the varnish.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UUctbrJTmE4


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Post 04 Oct 2016, 00:12 • #13 
Guide
Joined: 02/06/15
Posts: 160
Location: Colorful Colorado
Thanks for the replies everyone. I always appreciate you guys taking time to answer my questions!

Quote:
if you dont like "tunnels", maybe keep your wraps stopping short of where the guide begins to ramp up?
I have definitely tightened up my thread work but now I'm paying more attention to the last couple of turns.

Quote:
agree that an "open tunnel" is fine on a varnished rod.
I guess that's true but my problem is really just the OCD to make everything the way I want it to look which sometimes leads me down the rabbit hole.

Quote:
Open tunnels look horrible on any modern rod. But that's just my preference.
Yes! It's that OCD kicking in...


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Post 04 Oct 2016, 09:15 • #14 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 09/18/09
Posts: 5561
Location: Relocated to the Drought Stricken West.
I've been battling shimmers on longer, ferrule wraps. I seem to get bright patches (that I assume are air in the thread) that prevent the wrap from going clear. Are there techniques to battle this? I've just cut off my ferrule wraps for the third time.

Sorry for the hijack, but everyone keeps saying varnish is easy. I am using an oil based varnish, I don't seem to have the problem with a poly-spar.

Carl


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Post 04 Oct 2016, 09:51 • #15 
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Joined: 10/12/06
Posts: 1184
Location: US-CA
I have found that the type of thread I am using to wrap the guides has contributed to this problem. I have never had a problem with A size nylon, when using Man o War. Man o War is the only varnish I use. I have noticed that this problem is more common when I am using small diameter silk threads. I came to the conclusion that the smaller diameter threads are harder to thoroughly saturate causing air to become trapped. I believe the smaller diameter threads have a tighter twist and cause a resistance to the varnish penetrating the cord. I could be all wet with this assumption, however my process is based on this. I thin my varnish much like the above referenced video to get complete and total saturation of the wrap. However I do not use paint thinners, but rather a vehicle extender, turpentine, to thin the varnish. Heating the varnish is an alternative to the use of turpentine. I apply my first coat of varnish very thinly and continuously until the wrap is fully loaded and a bead of varnish starts to form on the surface. I'l wipe the bead of excess varnish off and let the wrap dry for a day. I'll finish with 2-3 or more coats as necessary.
I've not had any problems with my silk wraps since I've started doing this and never had problems with nylon using heat thinned varnish.
Respectfully rvreclus


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Post 04 Oct 2016, 10:45 • #16 
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Joined: 09/18/09
Posts: 5561
Location: Relocated to the Drought Stricken West.
RVrecluse,

Thanks for your description.

Yes, it is YLI #100 silk that I've had problems with. The Nylon size A has worked better.
What is aggravating is that it looks great when it's wet.

I have heard that the tension on the thread will make a difference, and I have tried dialing back on the tension for these wraps. I am going to try burnishing the wraps a bit better where the thread tag gets burried in the wrap. I might even try wet burnishing on these to work the varnish in. I'm just sick of these wraps. It's funny. I don't get the problem on the guide feet.


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Post 04 Oct 2016, 11:28 • #17 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 03/16/08
Posts: 3540
Location: Upstate-NY
what is your application method?

I always brush-on the varnish, and have never had shimmer issues.

Multiple passes with brush in contact with the thread probably helps work that 1st coat in.


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Post 04 Oct 2016, 12:35 • #18 
Master Guide
Joined: 10/22/13
Posts: 451
Location: AB, Canada
I pretty well only use YLI100 and helmsman spar urethane because they are the only things I can get locally.

I find it works great, no shimmers, with a fresh can, but when the can has been around for a while it becomes slightly thicker and the shimmers begin to show up.

I've been dealing with this by getting a new can but maybe thinning or heating would get me a bit more use from a can.


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Post 04 Oct 2016, 13:03 • #19 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 10/12/06
Posts: 1184
Location: US-CA
I am not sure if the application question was directed towards myself? However, I also use a brush, one of the cheapo plastic bristle ones, where I trim the number of bristles (about 10-12) and shape them with a razor blade. This allows me to control the thinned varnish and to place the material as necessary.
Respectfully rvreclus


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Post 04 Oct 2016, 14:34 • #20 
Master Guide
Joined: 12/31/13
Posts: 519
Location: US-Mount Pleasant, SC
Something worth mentioning is that epoxy forms a bonding agent when the resin and hardener are mixed in the appropriate proportions, whereas varnish and urethane are held within volatile solvents. While epoxy shrinks some as the reaction takes place, the solvent for urethane and varnish volatilizes and leaves a fraction of the original application volume when completely dry. So it's completely normal to get unfilled guide tunnels with varnish and urethane, whereas this can be avoided with epoxy much more easily.


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Post 19 May 2021, 12:58 • #21 
Guide
Joined: 07/07/19
Posts: 221
Location: US-WI
For those interested, I recently discovered another trick to fill tunnels when using varnish. It’s relatively simple, but not as fast as leaving tunnels there. It works very well.
After your first coat of varnish has dried and you discover a tunnel:
1) Snip off a 3” piece of hard nylon tippet material. Choose a tippet diameter that is approx one-tenth the width of the tunnel you are trying to fill.
2) Mask the blank between the guide’s two feet using a short strip of narrow masking tape.
3) Secure the blank in a vertical position with the open end of the tunnel facing up.
4) Insert/drop the tippet into the tunnel and let it rest in there.
5) Using a bodkin, place a very small drop of varnish onto the blank at the opening of the tunnel and let it run into the bottom of the tunnel. Repeat, using small drops, until the tunnel is filled. Inevitably, a bubble or two will appear, right? At that point, simply slide the tippet up and down inside the tunnel, slowly, encouraging each bubble to work its way up and out. (This sliding will bring some residual varnish up onto the masking tape, which is why you masked the blank.)
6) Remove tippet, masking tape and let dry in vertical position.
Again, this is only to help those who care about such things. Full disclosure, I do:)


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Post 19 May 2021, 14:38 • #22 
Guide
Joined: 02/06/15
Posts: 160
Location: Colorful Colorado
Interesting. This speaks well to my ocd....


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Post 19 May 2021, 19:02 • #23 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 04/20/07
Posts: 8920
Location: US-ME
I must not have gotten that memo. Sorry, I don't get it. The tunnels need to be filled because . . . ? Dribbled in varnish will dry too thick and eventually peel from the blank and check because of the different flex rates of the blank and the threads and the space between them. The varnish is being asked to do the job of a flexible adhesive, which it is not. The soaked in finish is all the underside of the threads need for protection, and once a thick underlayer checks, it won't look too spiffy, either.


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Post 19 May 2021, 23:04 • #24 
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Joined: 11/06/17
Posts: 2498
Location: South of Joplin
Those open tunnels are what allows me to replace a snake foot without rewrapping the rod when one gets banged up or knocked off.
Plugging them with varnish also sets off my OCD just thinking about the tiny bit of added stiffness at each foot, I wonder if the rod will need a heavier line, or if that little nubbin of hardness will wear a hole in the 'glass.


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Post 25 May 2021, 00:09 • #25 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 12/27/14
Posts: 1501
Location: ON, Canada
This was with epoxy, not varnish, but I recently had a problem with the finish cracking on a big Spey rod I built for a friend. I wasn’t particularly careful about filling the tunnels and the consensus seems to be that water got in and froze, cracking the epoxy.

So I’m carefully filling the tunnels now.

Mind you, the guy in question winter steelhead’s in below freezing conditions 4-5 times a week so he might be a bit of an extreme case, but lesson learned.


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