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RECOIL Snakes
Post 29 Nov 2012, 11:07 • #1 
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I had read a lot of "pros" and "cons" -- positive and negative comments -- about REC Recoil snake guides on the online rodbuilding forums. Seems most folks either love or hate them. Had never used them before but was curious, so I ordered a set of REC recoil snakes guides.

The ends of the feet are nice and flat, but overall the feet seem longer than other snake guides of comparable size, and there is a lot of variation in foot length. Some guides have one foot longer than the other. Seems to be no uniform foot length from guide to guide. For the premium price paid I was expecting better.

I taped them to the 7' Fisher blank I'm building. I really like the light weight and flexibilty. They seem to perform very well in test casting and I've heard they are tough (and noisy)!

Wrapping these suckers is &*&(*_%fun. It took a bit of trial and error but I figured it out. What worked best for me was taking several open spiral, soft (little to no thread tension) wraps over the foot. With these wraps in place, and the guide aligned correctly, snug up the tension, pack the thread and finish wrapping. The way they move around you'd think these snakes are alive!

After all was wrapped I quickly realized that the variation in foot length had thrown off my guide wrap lengths. I'll have to cut them off and prep them to get equal foot lengths. Because they are so flexible, I'm thinking this will be a real bear ... anyone have any experience in grinding the feet on these bad boys?


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Re: RECOIL Snakes
Post 29 Nov 2012, 11:30 • #2 
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Dremel tool with sanding disk


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Re: RECOIL Snakes
Post 29 Nov 2012, 11:33 • #3 
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I couldn't have surmised it any better.
I've used the Recoil snakes and have filed the feet by hand but it's a pain - using a Dremel is a little too haphazard for such a bendy piece of wire even with a jig. It's true that they're super light, durable and cool looking but I just don't like to work with them. I believe there are some thicker wire Recoil snakes but don't have any experience with them.


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Re: RECOIL Snakes
Post 29 Nov 2012, 11:40 • #4 
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Thanks. That's what I do. My question is more about how to keep these slippery suckers from bending and twisting, while grinding. Maybe I am wrong but it seems to me that because of their flex properties they would be difficult to handle. Am I wrong?


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Re: RECOIL Snakes
Post 29 Nov 2012, 11:43 • #5 
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Hello
I love them they are the # one of the best guide innovations in my opinion introduced in many many years.
"noisy" Phillipson spirals are noisy rec recoils I don't find to have any different sound than any standard snake guide? but maybe I'm going deaf.
Foot prep I grind them to size same as I have been doing with all the rest for years, it's all part of rod making, the dremel with a stone works well.
The premium price you paid is for the premium performance of the guides not the ease of mounting them.
The time taken preparing the guide feet is something I enjoy!
The longer foot is part of the guides design, the guides are meant to be able to bend and return to their original shape and position, if you reduce the length, diameter, etc of the foot the guide will move under the thread rather than staying firmly footed.
The only prep I do is the very end to make the thread smoothly cover the guide/blank transition.
I hope that helps pat!
Tight lines and 7 p loops
Andy M

Image


Last edited by The Glass Master on 29 Nov 2012, 13:30, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: RECOIL Snakes
Post 29 Nov 2012, 11:59 • #6 
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I've made a small jig from a 3/8" dowel to help keep the feet still while whittling on them.


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Re: RECOIL Snakes
Post 29 Nov 2012, 12:02 • #7 
Guide
Joined: 05/22/12
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Location: US-OR
I've had good luck with these. Please realize they come in a light and standard version, the standard being "thicker" but still flexible compared with other brands.

I use a 31/2" bench grinder with an 80 grit wheel and a polishing/fiber wheel to finish. I also have a pair of dedicated forceps to hold the foot while grinding. If the feet are not symmetrical, you can gauge the length of the foot past the forceps hold point to even them out. I find these grind VERY quickly compared to other guides so use a light touch if you go the grinding wheel method. This setup is about $40 from Harbor Freight.

I also use guidefoot glue to attach them to the blank while wrapping. They are a little tougher to move around after wrapping so a little extra care in alignment prior to wrapping is good time to spend.

I use these on all my salt water rods.

'Cator


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Re: RECOIL Snakes
Post 29 Nov 2012, 12:05 • #8 
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Criscip, I am prety darn sloppy, and then just when I think I dressed a guide perfectly, I get it too sharp and it cuts the thread. Darn. One little "cheat," even with well dressed feet, is to use a little clear tape over the foot to smooth the starting ramp for the thread. I don't do that much, but it really is completely hidden by the wrap; only the hobbyist knows for sure.

A better cheat that I usually use if the thread isn't climbing right is to form a smoothing ramp by laying the overwrapped tag end lined up the foot for a few more wraps before cutting it. It smooths the transition and reduces slipping while filling any tiny gaps. In post 27 here, a little more description: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=11642&p=77606&hilit=cheat#p77606


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Re: RECOIL Snakes
Post 29 Nov 2012, 13:21 • #9 
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Those are good tricks -- thanks for sharing. Difficulty stems not from ramping up the foot but with keeping the snakes from moving around while you bind them down. It's kin to tying deerhair or elkhair caddis wings -- you have to take a soft turn or two around the hook shank otherwise the wing ends up on the underside of the hook. Then cinch up your thread to lock the wing (guide) into alignment.

I will bite the bullet. Cutting those suckers off tonight and will sand/grind to match foot lengths and make nice smooth tapered feet.

Whoever said "Haste makes waste" was so right.

I get that these guides are designed to be super light, super flexible --- they are all that. And I can deal with the tricky wrapping. However, I think REC could do a much better job of producing these guides with uniform foot length. Just my two cents.


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Re: RECOIL Snakes
Post 29 Nov 2012, 14:28 • #10 
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Joined: 04/26/06
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Hello
They are slippery little suckers aren't they.
The way to keep them put until you wrap them is with narrow pieces of tape.
Tape the one foot down, position the guide where it belongs, now put a narrow piece of tape at the root of the guide foot that you are going to wrap, start your wrap, wrap up onto the guide, wrap until you get close to the tape, remove the tape, finish the wrap.
Now go to the other unwrapped foot, remove the large piece of tape holding the foot in place,
Put a narrow piece of tape at the foot root as you did on the first side, recheck the location, adjust if need be, start your wrap, make sure it is the same length as the finished first wrap, adjust if need be, wrap up the guide to the tape, remove the tape , finish the wrap, and so on, and so on.
Tight lines and slippery makes good loops
Andy M

Image


Last edited by The Glass Master on 04 Dec 2012, 13:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: RECOIL Snakes
Post 29 Nov 2012, 14:44 • #11 
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That's good to do it the ideal way. Since you paralleled it to some fly-tying difficulties, I will tell that little trick as well. I can get pretty darn sloppy fly-tying, too, but if my fingers and pinch grip are in good shape and the strong reading glasses handy, I know how to do it right. First, make your life simple by throwing a few half hitches in before you put the hair on. Pinch the hair and hook shank and wrap your few low-tension loops and enclose them in your pinch. Now pull down, come under and up. Then pull up. Subsequently, pull down, pull up as opposed to keeping constant tension as you wrap. If have more to do on the fly, tie it off with a few half hitches and throw some head cement on it before continuing to the next item to be tied in. Securing the thread before and after most steps, and always pulling either straight up or straight down builds a strong fly and makes it much easier to start materials and to keep them in position. Pull up, pull down and stuff doesn't roll around the hook. If you think of the shank as rectangular, that helps execute the concept. Across the top with mild tension, down the side and pull, across the bottom with mild tension, up the side and pull.

Please show the result when you have finished wrapping those guides close to Andy's standard and neater than I would be able to.


Last edited by whrlpool on 29 Nov 2012, 17:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: RECOIL Snakes
Post 29 Nov 2012, 15:42 • #12 
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I use a variation on Andy's technique. ..

To hold down / temporarily secure the guides for wrapping I use a single width band of 1/8" masking tape at the base of both feet. I then wrap up to the tape (which secures the lower half of the foot), remove the band of tape, and complete the wrap.

I also tape on and align all the guides with the bands of 1/8" masking tape before I start wrapping. In other words, the rod in 'fishing ready' configuration, including guide alignment, before I start wrapping. When needed, I will replace a band of tape with a 'fresh' one before I wrap the guide to make sure it is secure (does not move while wrapping). I have found with this technique / method that I need to make little, and often no, post wrap adjustments (e.g. alignment, packing, burnishing).

Further, I use the same taping to hold / secure the guides while working on the guide spacing and during deflection / bend testing. In fact, I use this tape for a number of things in rod building, and consider it an essential supply. The tape can be found at an automotive parts store in 60 yd. rolls.

Andrew.


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Re: RECOIL Snakes
Post 29 Nov 2012, 17:39 • #13 
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Scotch Blue masking tape -- the rod builder's friend. Sliced into to various narrow widths on a cutting board, no residue, holds tight.


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Re: RECOIL Snakes
Post 29 Nov 2012, 18:28 • #14 
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tiptop wrote:
Scotch Blue masking tape -- the rod builder's friend. Sliced into to various narrow widths on a cutting board, no residue, holds tight.

That is what the (green) automotive 1/8" masking tape is essentially (which is also made by 3M Scotch brand). ~$3 / $4 a 60 yd. roll and ready to go.

Andrew.


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Re: RECOIL Snakes
Post 30 Nov 2012, 11:02 • #15 
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The one time I used em years ago I used tiny plastic zip strips (wire ties) to hold the guide feet down, I put one on both feet, when you wrap up to it just take your scissors and snip off the strip. I love my zip strips!
I notice the diff length feet, but did not even em up.
Keith


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Re: RECOIL Snakes
Post 30 Nov 2012, 20:05 • #16 
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Using a sanding drum on my dremel I took off about 1/16" from each foot of each guide. It doesn't sound like a lot but it makes a noticeable difference. And now they are uniform length and will take less thread wraps. It was a lot easier than I thought. I used a pair of hemostats to hold the guide. Grinding required only the lightest touch. All told I guess I spent about an hour. I'm glad I did. I only wish I had a "before"picture to compare. Here's what the guides look like now.
Image


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Re: RECOIL Snakes
Post 01 Dec 2012, 05:09 • #17 
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Location: Salisbury, England
Haha. I just clipped a set to even shorter length with wire cutters, about like yours criscip, then touched the blunt end on a gentle angle to a dremel disk to make a thread ramp - fine for A nylon.


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Re: RECOIL Snakes
Post 01 Dec 2012, 05:29 • #18 
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Quote:
The Longer Foot Is Part Of The Guides Design. . . If You Reduce The Length, Diameter, Etc Of The Foot The Guide Will Move Under The Thread Rather Than Staying Firmly Footed.

Overlooked, or do the symmetric grinders just not agree?


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Re: RECOIL Snakes
Post 01 Dec 2012, 09:24 • #19 
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Yes, I have heard that Swellcat. It seems that folks with prior experience using these guides are divided on the question of "to trim, or not to trim ... " Personally, this is my first time trying Recoil snake guides. I prefer the shorter foot length, and I took pains to file flat feet on each of them --- but of course they are not as wide as feet on factory guides. We'll see how it goes


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Re: RECOIL Snakes
Post 04 Dec 2012, 14:23 • #20 
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"Crashed and burnt". ..ha ha, that's what I'll call this chapter.

WELL IT SEEMS I BUTCHERED the lithe and shapely Recoils to dead, lifeless snakes.

Even though i thought i carefully trimmed and tapered them, alas, their now truncated feet are too narrow -- not wide or big enough to keep them planted where they're wrapped. I cut them off and chucked them across the room!

In a few words, "be careful" dressing these petites. As tough and resilient as they are, if you cut them back too much you won't have enough wire to make a broad or substantial enough foot to hold them in place.

Two guides -- these I never touched (defiled?)-- were wrapped right out of the box and sit nicely on the butt section. These are staying, and the others will be replaced with, yes, RECOILS. I am a glutton for punishment. But I just love the look, and the flex, and they are so light.

Sorry no pics yet.

If my luck holds true I'll run out of thread soon, as the next will be my third attempt at wrapping this frisky Fisher. ha!

Next chapter: "Third Time's The Charm?"


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Re: RECOIL Snakes
Post 04 Dec 2012, 14:51 • #21 
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You and Corlay with his color preserver issues need to get together. The way it will go down is his CP will work perfectly for you, and your RECOILS will work without a care for him. Or else you can make a good video on the power of persistence. You don't live that far apart and could choose a neutral building grounds, such as that diner in Roscoe.

I also appreciate both of your persistence in reporting these ordeals, ehr, I mean learning experiences.


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Re: RECOIL Snakes
Post 04 Dec 2012, 18:38 • #22 
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Ha, ha! Yeah, maybe between the two of us we could get these pesky problems solved, actually get a rod built! Corlay, I'll send you my blank and guides. Ship me your CP.

This is why I'm keepin my day job. :rollin


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Re: RECOIL Snakes
Post 12 Dec 2012, 11:49 • #23 
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I got my second set of guides and wrapped them last week. I didn't mess much with them, just light touch up with a hand-held nail file/polishing block to get a fine taper on the feet.

Last night I put a third coat of thinned spar on the guide wraps. Over the next few days I will add coats of full strength spar. Happy to be back on track, and all is looking good. Will take and post some pics when I can.


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Re: RECOIL Snakes
Post 01 Nov 2019, 13:34 • #24 
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Looking at the photo, it's hard to imagine those feet not accommodating wraps sufficient to hold the guide. Those must be slippery indeed, but that's a good quality for line flow once you get them tied down!


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Re: RECOIL Snakes
Post 09 Nov 2019, 17:32 • #25 
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Joined: 01/02/12
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Knowing that things can easily get out of control using powered grinders of any kind, I have hand filed/dressed guide feet needing attention. On those occasions it occurred to me that mounting the guide in my fly tying vise holds it nicely . If you had midge jaws, all the better.


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