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New Orvis CFO III
Post 06 Dec 2021, 19:01 • #1 
Guide
Joined: 07/14/20
Posts: 111
It looks like the 50th Anniversary version was just an appetizer. https://www.orvis.com/cfo-iii-reel/3C9F.html

I have mixed feelings about Orvis but applaud this kind of product release. A good reel is always a good reel.

I wonder how the reel foot will work with vintage rods? Probably a struggle. But, still neat to see the CFO reissued.


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Re: New Orvis CFO III
Post 06 Dec 2021, 20:44 • #2 
Sport
Joined: 12/15/17
Posts: 59
Location: SW Idaho
I think the reel foot looks thicker than it actually is. I have the previous version by Abel which fits my HL Leonard, and my 1970s Fenwick just fine. I will admit that those two rods may not be vintage enough to be a guage.


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Re: New Orvis CFO III
Post 08 Dec 2021, 00:47 • #3 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 03/30/09
Posts: 1525
Location: Hamilton,Ontario,Canada
Im curious as to who is making this new CFO.


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Re: New Orvis CFO III
Post 08 Dec 2021, 01:01 • #4 
Sport
Joined: 11/24/21
Posts: 70
Yep...links to this were posted in the thread about the anniversary edition. They are being made in the same facility where the Mirage reels are being made. Edit: Not confirmed, but seems logical going off a number of factors.

The profile of the foot is very similar to that of the Abel reels. I've posted pictures of an Abel version next to a Hardy version and the majority of the difference is because the Abel version (and this new one) is taller...it sort of throws off the scale. The metal on the curved part of the foot that contacts the seat, when viewed from the front, is slightly thinner on the Abel reels that the Hardy or BFR reels.


Last edited by G-ManBart on 08 Dec 2021, 11:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New Orvis CFO III
Post 08 Dec 2021, 08:32 • #5 
Master Guide
Joined: 09/26/10
Posts: 547
Location: Montana
The foot looks similar to me to what’s on the Mirage LT which is a beefier foot.


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Re: New Orvis CFO III
Post 08 Dec 2021, 09:18 • #6 
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Joined: 02/06/16
Posts: 328
Location: US
From the pics, the finish the new CFO doesn't do that reel any justice.


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Re: New Orvis CFO III
Post 08 Dec 2021, 10:09 • #7 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 12/05/06
Posts: 2087
Location: US-PA
G-ManBart wrote:
Yep...links to this were posted in the thread about the anniversary edition. They are being made in the same facility where the Mirage reels are being made.

You've confirmed from Orvis that the new CFO is being made at that facility? Because when I asked them a few weeks back, they told me they weren't at liberty to divulge the facility making them.

FWIW - While the elongated holes on the Mirage LT reel foot does look similar, the Mirage feet are all stamped "Made in the USA" which is missing on the CFO III foot. What is also strange is Orvis has no problem saying, "the Mirage LT is made in New Hampshire by the same skilled American craftsmen that build the Mirage" but they are hush-hush regarding the CFO...

In any case, the good news (for me) is I own all three of the Abel versions and have a Hardy CFO III so I have no need for another. ;)


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Re: New Orvis CFO III
Post 08 Dec 2021, 10:29 • #8 
Sport
Joined: 11/24/21
Posts: 70
I have a Mirage (not an LT) and Orvis has really good pictures of the LT showing the foot. The profile of the Mirage and LT foot is the same, but the LT has cutouts to save weight on the wings and through the middle of the riser. The riser area is actually an oval cross-section. CFOs by Hardy, BFR and Abel all have a square cross-section riser so I don't think they're all that similar

The profile of the Abel CFO appears identical to this new reel...same cutout shape, same riser, etc. Given modern manufacturing you'd have to assume Orvis would have owned the CNC files Abel would have been using to make the CFO and the easy thing to do would be just give that to the new company rather than reinvent the wheel.

My wife doesn't follow here so I can say I'm ordering one of the new CFOs so I can compare to the Abel, Hardy and BFR reels. :)


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Re: New Orvis CFO III
Post 08 Dec 2021, 10:30 • #9 
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Joined: 09/05/17
Posts: 305
Location: On a Stream
Anyone know when the LA version coming out ;)


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Re: New Orvis CFO III
Post 08 Dec 2021, 11:03 • #10 
Sport
Joined: 11/24/21
Posts: 70
Bamboozle wrote:
G-ManBart wrote:
Yep...links to this were posted in the thread about the anniversary edition. They are being made in the same facility where the Mirage reels are being made.

You've confirmed from Orvis that the new CFO is being made at that facility? Because when I asked them a few weeks back, they told me they weren't at liberty to divulge the facility making them.

FWIW - While the elongated holes on the Mirage LT reel foot does look similar, the Mirage feet are all stamped "Made in the USA" which is missing on the CFO III foot. What is also strange is Orvis has no problem saying, "the Mirage LT is made in New Hampshire by the same skilled American craftsmen that build the Mirage" but they are hush-hush regarding the CFO...

In any case, the good news (for me) is I own all three of the Abel versions and have a Hardy CFO III so I have no need for another. ;)


I haven't confirmed the reels are made in the same facility in an official sense....I should have worded that more carefully. I have seen others post that it is the same facility. I did some digging about the company which makes the Mirage line and it seems likely Orvis is using the same company.

The company which manufactures the Mirage line also makes their pliers and nippers, so they're already doing multiple products. One of the articles I found said that Orvis was only something like 1% of this company's business and Orvis was looking for a company that could scale up to meet demand. It would seem odd for Orvis to go to another company for the new reel when they've got one making multiple products already.

I have to wonder why Orvis doesn't mention anything in the Mirage description about it being made in New Hampshire, but then added that to the LT description which came later. You'd think they would have it in both descriptions, so it's likely just an oversight.


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Re: New Orvis CFO III
Post 09 Dec 2021, 08:29 • #11 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 12/05/06
Posts: 2087
Location: US-PA
G-ManBart: "It would seem odd for Orvis to go to another company for the new reel when they've got one making multiple products already."

Almost as odd as them having a problem saying when I asked, "the reels are being made right here in Vermont." Instead they replied, "we are not at liberty to discuss where the new CFO is being made."

I'm not saying it's not likely or possible, but "others posting that it is the same facility" on the Internet aren't speculating, they claim to KNOW something Orvis won't divulge. It seems vetting information before posting it is a lot art on the Internet...

It sort of reminds me of Hardy who uses (not sure if they still do) a company in Peterlee, UK, about 55 south of Alnwick to do the machining of the UK built reels which are then sent to Alnwick for finishing. They won't tell you name of the shop, but will proudly label the reel "Made by Hardy Bros. LTD, England," but they don't use Alnwick.

BTW - I have the Peterlee information IN WRITING from Hardy UK. ;)

I'm only busting your ball bearings because I specifically asked Orvis where the reels were being made and they wouldn't say.


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Re: New Orvis CFO III
Post 09 Dec 2021, 14:09 • #12 
Sport
Joined: 11/24/21
Posts: 70
Well, I did admit I should have worded my post more carefully and I went back and edited that comment to reflect that as well.

I went back and dug through the other threads I'm aware of and the part(s) that seem to be confirmed were that neither Abel nor Douglas is making these reels. Those were posted by folks that have a long track record of industry information, but I didn't call those companies myself, so take it with a grain of salt.


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Re: New Orvis CFO III
Post 09 Dec 2021, 17:22 • #13 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 05/19/14
Posts: 3925
Location: USA - Illinois
Branded reels made by independent companies is nothing new - over 100 years at least. Hardy and Orvis are very proud and protective of their brands, and they have every right to be. I might feel the same as they do, none of our business. It is their dollars being spent to make, have made, market and sell any given product. Sometimes we can Sherlock the details they protect, sometimes we can't. Sooner or later though, the truth is slipped by someone. Be patient. :D


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Re: New Orvis CFO III
Post 10 Dec 2021, 16:22 • #14 
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Joined: 04/08/06
Posts: 124
Location: US-PA
Yeah, maybe Orvis doesn't want you to know because you might be able to go to the maker company and buy a comparable reel for considerably less money, without the Orvis brand name. Perhaps they have an agreement with the Mirage reel maker for sole distribution rights but not with the new CFO maker company?

I think the new CFO looks pretty good. Sure, the anodized finish is modern and glossy, but it is probably durable, and at least they don't use Phillips head latch cover screws.


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Re: New Orvis CFO III
Post 11 Dec 2021, 13:51 • #15 
Sport
Joined: 11/24/21
Posts: 70
From everything I've read, the company making the Mirage line hasn't made reels previously. One article says that someone at Orvis saw an article about this company making aerospace and automotive industry products and contacted them out of the blue. The owner happens to be a fly fishing enthusiast and jumped at the chance to get into making fly fishing stuff. If that's true, it wouldn't seem they would have other reels to offer. We don't know if the CFO is made in the same place, but I'd put a pretty hefty bet that they are one in the same.

I'm not sure why people think the new CFO finish is glossy...it's absolutely matte finish. I have a Mirage with the same type 3 anodizing and it's similarly matte. It's smoother than the old Hardy and BFR reels, but still matte. Glossy would be like some Abel reels or my Ross The San Miguel where you can read something reflected off it.


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Re: New Orvis CFO III
Post 02 Jan 2022, 18:24 • #16 
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Joined: 02/06/16
Posts: 328
Location: US
Has anybody has a chance to inspect one of these yet? Are they made to the same dimensions as the forged/rivited early models? I trust that are machined from aluminum bar stock?


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Re: New Orvis CFO III
Post 02 Jan 2022, 19:35 • #17 
Sport
Joined: 11/24/21
Posts: 70
The black version doesn't ship for another five or six weeks, but a few folks have posted about the gold anniversary edition reels. The dimensions appear to be the same as the early Hardy reels but there are some differences. For example, the line guard is integral to the frame rather than a plated part held on with screws (or not present on some of the earlier examples where it was an option). The rivets are shaped differently and the foot is taller, but actually slightly thinner in dimensions although it looks bigger. I've taken measurements of an early Hardy CFO III, a BFR CFO III and an Abel CFO III. The Abel has the smallest foot but looks the biggest and one of the guys with the new gold anniversary edition measured his and got the same numbers I did off the Abel foot. The foot situation is a weird optical illusion where the old ones look thinner, but aren't...I took comparison photos with caliper measurements to prove it since so many folks were saying the new foot looked bigger and wouldn't work on sliding ring reel seats.

The page on the anniversary edition says it's machined out of 6061 bar stock and has type II anodizing. They don't specify the material on the black version, but do say it has type III anodizing. Someone weighed one of the gold reels and got 4oz, which is a touch heavier than the originals. The page for the black reels lists 4oz, so I can only assume the material is the same 6061. Maybe they'll update the page if a few of us ask.


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Re: New Orvis CFO III
Post 02 Jan 2022, 23:00 • #18 
Guide
Joined: 02/06/16
Posts: 328
Location: US
Thanks G-Man. Going back and forth from the pics Orvis has for the new CFO and the 50th Anniversary CFO there seems to have a different reel foot design. I guess we'll have to wait till they are out to see about the dimensions of the reel foot.


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Re: New Orvis CFO III
Post 03 Jan 2022, 02:01 • #19 
Sport
Joined: 11/24/21
Posts: 70
It's possible, but the pictures of the black reel don't show the central portion to see if it's hollowed out or not like the one on the gold reel so it's hard to say. The rest of the profile seems to be the same, and the oval cutout on each toe look similar.

Here's a thought....the gold reels have an area where the logo is located that isn't ported where the black reels are fully ported. If they wanted to keep the weight of the black and gold reels the same they may have simply hollowed out the center riser portion of the foot to remove the weight gained by less porting.

The plot thickens :P


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Re: New Orvis CFO III
Post 03 Jan 2022, 14:38 • #20 
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Joined: 12/05/06
Posts: 2087
Location: US-PA
Unless I am missing something, I don't see a line guard on either the 50th Anniversary or the NEW CFO III, just like the Abel version had no line guard and a ton of other reels don't use them any longer.

MANY reels with Type III anodizing no longer have line guards which in the true sense is an additional part mounted to the frame that would typically be harder than the frame to resist grooving caused by fly lines. If there isn't one, it isn't "integral," it is in the opinion of the manufacturer, "unnecessary."

The part of the frame on the Abel CFO, the 50th Anniversary or the new CFO III where a true line guard would be mounted is no harder or wear resistant than the rest of the reel so it isn't a line guard, it's part of the frame.

The old CFO's, like a lot of older reels weren't hard anodized so they came with & without a line guard.


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Re: New Orvis CFO III
Post 03 Jan 2022, 20:37 • #21 
Sport
Joined: 11/24/21
Posts: 70
You may be missing something....unless you're just looking for an argument over semantics.

You only talk about protecting the finish of the reel, but a line guard protects both the frame from line and the line from the frame (sharp corners, pinched by the spool, etc).

The original CFO came with or without the separate, plated line guard and the frame configuration was different on both types. The reels without the plated line guard had a largely rectangular cross bar that had wing extensions on the spool side that fit into the slot in the back of the spool and the corners were all given a bit of a radius. The shape is essentially a scaled down version of the plated line guard. It obviously did nothing to protect the finish, but it was clearly shaped to protect the line and prevent the line from getting pinched by the spool (likely just as a fish runs).

The versions with the plated line guard had a simple rectangular cross bar without the wing extensions on the spool side and were drilled and tapped for the plated guard. It did have a bit of a radius where it met the frame to prevent stress fractures, but the line guard overlapped the entire cross bar and would have prevented the line from getting to the corners.

The Abel and new versions have simply integrated the shape and functions of all of the above into one thing...cross bar, line guard and keeping the overall look in the spirit of the older reels. It may not be helping to protect the finish, but it's certainly keeping the line moving freely and not getting pinched, so I'd still call that a line guard. If someone else wants to call that feature by another name they're more than welcome to, but I'll stick with line guard, or integral line guard.

I should probably check on patents for "integral line guard"....lol


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Re: New Orvis CFO III
Post 04 Jan 2022, 06:02 • #22 
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Joined: 12/05/06
Posts: 2087
Location: US-PA
Why don't you call Orvis, Abel, Ross or any of the folks that make reels and ask them if their reels come with line guards and let me know what they say...


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Re: New Orvis CFO III
Post 04 Jan 2022, 12:52 • #23 
Sport
Joined: 11/24/21
Posts: 70
No need to make phone calls. Since Hardy made the original CFOs and they have made countless reels with the traditional line guard they are probably a good reference for the term. I mean, if Hardy doesn't know what a line guard is, nobody does....

Their description of the Ultradisc Cassette reel:
Hardy set new standards in 2008 with the introduction of the first high-end cassette reel system seen on the market. This year, see that bar raised yet again with the all new Ultradisc cassette reel. The all-new frame design allows significant weight saving and incorporates a built-in line guard design that effortlessly controls thin running lines.

Their description of the Ultraclick UCL reel:
A new standard in ultra light fly reels. The UCL series is our lightest fly reel ever, featuring a fully enclosed line guard for use with ultra thin line designs and leader-only systems.

Now just to make sure Hardy hasn't gone completely crazy and no longer knows what they're making, I figured I'd look for another company to back them up. On my desk is a Nautilus reel so I figured I'd go to their site. The first reel listed is their X-Series and the description is pretty interesting:

The Nautilus X-Series is an open-frame reel designed for lightness, strength, drag smoothness, and fast line pick up. The X-Series design has strong beams that extend from the center to a wide line guard.

Clearly I'm not the only one to think that a line guard can be integrated into the frame and does more than protect the finish. Hardy calls it "built-in" and I called it "integral"...I don't think those conflict.

Now to be safe, I went to Merriam-Webster and looked for synonyms of "integral" and the very first one listed is "built-in".

Like I said, you can call that feature whatever you want. I'll call it a line guard or integral/built-in line guard just like Hardy does and feel pretty confident the term is being used correctly.


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Re: New Orvis CFO III
Post 05 Jan 2022, 12:25 • #24 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 12/05/06
Posts: 2087
Location: US-PA
Ask Hardy about the Wide Spool Perfect versus the narrow spool version since we WERE are talking about reels that came with and without line guards that had to be reversed and such versus new creations without that use the term to appease.


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Re: New Orvis CFO III
Post 05 Jan 2022, 16:32 • #25 
Administrator
Joined: 01/10/06
Posts: 7811
Location: Holly Springs, NC
G-Man, please understand it pains me to say this. Today's Hardy is not the legendary company of years gone by. Today's Hardy is only a brand name and it shows. Their website includes phrases such as our lightest fly reel ever*, built-in line guard, and leader-only systems**. These are simply meaningless adver-speak posing as information. As more evidence that Hardy hired clueless marketing hacks, their website copy also claims the various Ultra reels have a GEAR RATIO: 1.0:1. That's an interesting claim for reels with no gears...

Marketing puffery notwithstanding, the intent of a line guard is to prevent an abrasive fly line from cutting into the reel frame. To do so, the reel maker has two design requirements. First, the line guard material must be harder than the reel frame. Second, the line guard should be readily replaced when damaged***. A line guard integral to the reel frame, by definition, cannot meet either design trait. Thus, the term built-in line guard is an advertising inspired oxymoron.

Fortunately, most modern fly lines don't collect dirt and abrasive debris as readily as the silk lines of yore. Modern hard anodizing produces reel frames less susceptible to abrasion. An actual line guard is rarely necessary. Still, adding some shallow slashes to the reel frame in a line guard-ish pattern, doesn't mean the reel has a line guard.


Tom

* Yet the website publishes, Reel Size = 2000, not a reel weight. Hmm...
** So, how do I catch a fish with only a leader? If I only have a leader, why do I need a system? Did anyone in charge read this stuff?
*** From Trout Tackle One, chapter 5, Observations on the Modern Fly Reel, by E. Schwiebert, p 185.


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