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Post 24 Jan 2020, 12:17 • #1 
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Well thought I'd start this in earnest in a new topic as had been suggested. Comparing the Medalist to other of tackle and equipment sent me on a search in that vein sort of. I have and old Horrock's and Ibbetson's 'boo rod and had been told this was a working man's rod for the era it was made by the gentleman that had refinished the rod. Didn't really know the era didn't really know if anything that was mentioned was true at all.

Well after some research seems like there was some truth to the story and I found out a bunch more information that seems appropriate to this sub forum. Apparently H&I got underway as fishing tackle manufacturer's near to the turn of the last century and they produced fly rods that ran from the cheapest clubs to some fairly well made rods that fetched a fairly high price for. Mine is "The Vernley" and was at the upper end of things and was made sometime in the '30s based on decals, writing, and rod bag. I have taken any the "true" collector value away by having it refinished but was happy to see all about it.

They also made reels which is what I was originally pondering. A quick search turned up several reels, some that seemed an almost direct copy of the Medalist others seemed more akin to early Hardy's and still others looked like the old auto reels my father was fond of when I was kid. Looks kike they can be had for what I would consider cheap on ebay but have no idea about their story. A search about the reels did not turn up much. Does anyone here know anything about them?


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Post 24 Jan 2020, 12:48 • #2 
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Many years ago I inherited an old South Bend bamboo rod and a plastic fly reel from my wife's grandfather. The rod was in really bad shape and I kept it only as a keepsake. I remember the reel was a Horrocks-Ibbotson Vernley, made from Bakelite, with a click drag. Now this was back in my graphite rod days when I was still a callow youth who thought you needed a disc drag reel that was capable of stopping a submarine, so I thought the Vernley reel to be an el cheapo plastic reel, so I discarded it one day while cleaning out my shed. I mean after all, though it was in excellent condtion, it was still just a cheap old plastic reel, so why would I want to keep it? Wish I still had it, I would probably be using it on some of my short, light rods today.

Larry


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Post 24 Jan 2020, 13:27 • #3 
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bones, you alluded to one of the best already.
The prewar Shakespeare Russell and its variants were pretty high class reels.
The quality went down a bit postwar, but the last of those variants was a very nice reel for short light rods, H-I Sportcraft 60 (and 100).
You usually see these with the vinyl paint exfoliated and all polished up.
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Where it came up on the other thread, I showed this '51 Ward's catalog.
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Shakespeare reels were some of the better, O/C 76 has a fan club, but you can see they also included some of the worst.
One flimsy reel I can think of that came out of the 50s was Edwards, Wilby, another the H-I Mohawk - there were many bad aluminum click-pawls. I never met a Bronson I like, but others may not agree - though Bronson had their own design click-pawl that works pretty well. Many postwar brands disappeared in the heightened competition for good, inexpensive fly reels.
Olympic/Seiko, which became Daiwa, caught up with some nice reels in the 60s/70, including the Hardy clones, their version of the O/C 76, which was sold by Berkley.

Martin is the heavyweight champ of blue collar reels, were able to continue through the 80s and just up to the new millenium, with an intelligent manufacturing system, good drag and great click-pawl, and you can see the current market for all their US-made products.
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Last edited by bulldog1935 on 28 Jan 2020, 07:39, edited 7 times in total.

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Post 24 Jan 2020, 13:51 • #4 
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Hadn't seen that one but had seen the 1850 series of reels that appear very similar. Seems they were made early on post-war in Hong Kong then moved to Japan. Had know idea about the history of H&I and the company's prominence in the early sporting goods industry here in the US. Wish I knew more about this kind of stuff and felt like I could trust e-bay. There seems to be some fair prices on this type of stuff on ebay but when I also see a near mint Hardy Perfect going for under a hundred bucks I become dubious about the actual item.

It would be neat to have a Verneley reel to with my rod but cant imagine Bakelite would balance that thing unless lead core line was used as backing.

It also seems as if anyone with early fly gear for sale has no idea about condition or anything else. I think I will probably stick to making my purchases here from the for sale subcategory.


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Post 24 Jan 2020, 14:13 • #5 
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I have a couple Weber Kalahatch reels that must have been working man stuff. I only know they were in a "lot" with something I wanted at the time.
And I suppose the 1554 SalTrout would qualify, not sure about the all brass 1555?


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Post 24 Jan 2020, 14:35 • #6 
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While there were some not so good prewar reels, I'll show you why the concept of blue collar doesn't apply.
1917 Outside magazine ads for Horton/Bristol/Meek.
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Horton sold Bristol steel rods side-by-side with Meek reels.
In today's money, the cost of each ranged from $300 to $900.
Some of the worst and priciest prewar fly reels were also made by Bristol.
If they don't hold their value over time, we call them Curiosities.
If they do, we call them Classics.
You'd be lucky to get $15 for a Bristol Steel rod today, but the Meek reels pretty much hold their original value in today's money.


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Post 24 Jan 2020, 15:02 • #7 
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I know that growing up in the blue collar '50s only women, old men, ne'er do wells and boys fished and those almost all used home made poles and bait. Up into the late 50s anyway when we started to see places like Western Auto carry more affordable gear. Surprising maybe, but as I think back it was the perpetually unemployed that had the best fishing tackle.
It was only after Rural Electrification was about complete in the mid-late '60s that country folks had disposable time never mind disposable income.


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Post 24 Jan 2020, 15:34 • #8 
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A pretty good argument can be made that prewar tackle sold by general catalogs and hardware stores - Union Hardware, Sears, Wards, Western Auto, HSB&Co (later True Value) - counts as blue collar fishing tackle. But again, using Trev's example, common people didn't have the leisure time to give up, and even tougher to justify the purchase.
I still say the professional class went fly fishing between the wars, and frugal tackle was offered to them at such places.
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Post 24 Jan 2020, 16:04 • #9 
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Of course part of the postwar entertainment boom, the Weber Klatahatch that Trev mentioned was made by Duncan Briggs - and only for 2 years, '53-4, they made a lot of reels in that run.
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Interesting feature on the Duncan-Briggs, the drag gear is fixed to the spindle and backplate, and the click-pawl is in the spool to counter-balance the handle.
A hefty reel for long rods.


Two nifty US-made perfect-clones (exposed spool backplate for thumb drag),
Holmes
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and Stuart
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Last edited by bulldog1935 on 29 Jan 2020, 06:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Post 24 Jan 2020, 16:10 • #10 
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Oh. I think the professional class always were the mainstream of anglers. They would have had both time and money to invest in a hobby. The higher end goods likely went to the wealthy though that only occasionally used it, more as an entertainment than hobby. But all that was before my days and the notion is just acquired from reading things like novels and how infrequently fishing is mentioned, and usually when mentioned it was the priest, physician, engineer or poacher wielding the rod.
In my grandfathers' generation, the merchant set trot-lines and the farmer gigged at night, or seined the creek with net wire fencing and a team of horses. The fishing was a job, providing food rather than leisure.


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Post 25 Jan 2020, 09:00 • #11 
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and the pro bass fishermen I know were wealthy first - one a developer who retired young after building and selling San Antonio north of the airport - my office is in one of the first buildings he built and sold.

The Vernley bakelite reel counts 100% as blue collar.

The prewar Meisselbach-Catucci bakelite reel, and the subsequent Redditch(Young)-made Aerialite, using the same molds bought from Bronson, shouldn't count as blue collar, and both have independently exceptional check designs - The M-C Symploreel has reversible wind. In their day, these reels count as engineered for light weight.
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After making those historic economic distinctions, the trend among cane rod fishers is to identify any production (i.e., not bench-made) fly rod and any production reel - again, not bench-made - and also not Hardy, as blue-collar tackle. That becomes a fair and working definition, but it also has to include the Medalist, which we discussed its preeminent spot on the other thread.
If you look at the first glass rods, early 50s, top-grade production cane rods were $25, while the new glass rods were $35.
But I think it's best to associate blue collar with the mass manufacturing of the postwar entertainment boom. Very simply, postwar mass-manufactured tackle was marketed to blue collar workers.

A postwar distinction is probably easier to see in spinning reels, which happen to be all postwar.
Blue collar is Ocean City (True Temper), Shakespeare, while a benchmade Fin-Nor Gar Wood spinning reel very clearly isn't blue collar.
Airex crosses the line, with certain blue collar examples like the curious Vic and more realistic Spinster, but the French-Luxor-designed and licensed Mastereel, which more than doubled the ante at $35, was probably priced above a blue collar market. Interesting, at the same time, you could buy the (better functioning) French-made Luxor for half the price of the US-made Airex copy. Import then implied poor quality.

Back to fly reels, maybe others can throw up some Bronson examples and their experiences.
And of course searching the reels by name will turn up past threads.

I do (did) have an O/C 305 to show, 100% blue collar:
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By the time we get to the '80s in fly reels, the distinction again becomes clear, with all the bench-made from barstock reels at one end and all the mass-produced reels at the other.
In today's consumer-based society, the line probably doesn't exist, though we have bench-made reels from $600 to well over $2000, we also have offshore CNC-machined reels that can cover the whole price range, the higher end made in engineered materials. Today, the tackle on the cheap end, we call "starter".


Last edited by bulldog1935 on 29 Jan 2020, 06:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Post 25 Jan 2020, 09:14 • #12 
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There was definitely a grand marketing campaign towards the American worker in the postwar years. I'd go so far to say the 50s were the high tide towards that trend in American consumerism. The Second World War expanded the American middle class far beyond what had it ever been.
One also has to remember however that there was a marked uptick in a professional class of folks and an economic boom in the early interwar years with a special emphasis placed on the northeast. There was also an extending of credit to this new economic class and to professionals living in urban, and what we would now deem as, suburban areas and an expanding of a credit system involving those in agrarian industries typically in the western and Midwestern states. This in my opinion was the first attempt at hard advertising towards a middle class by American industry. Of course this period led to the economic downfall seen in the waning years of the 1920s lasting until the mid to late 1930s.
I hold a masters in military history and one would think that this sort of thing would not have been in my purview during my course of studies however in this modern age where esteemed professors try and smash in as many aspects of a given subject so as to make the original intent almost impossible to distinguish, I was inundated with such. As has been said though many people did not have the time to spend on fishing or any other forms of leisure that many of us recognize today. While researching the interwar period, while in school, I began to think of my own family as it is a tale of two distinct regions and classes, professionally speaking though they both were very similar in economic fortunes. One grandfather was from southern Maryland the other from New England (I say New England as he traveled often to where his skill set was needed). My relatives from Maryland had no time for fishing but did so on occasion if it could be done close to home and provided a boost to the pantry. They did hunt a bit more as this put food in the pot more reliably and was generally outside of the growing season. They chiefly targeted waterfowl on the tidal Patuxent that had shores along their property. Money was made by raising tobacco so their time was devoted to the fields that sustained the family.
The yankee side of my family and, I know only of my grandfather and grandmother on that side, stood in stark contrast. My grandfather held a bachelor’s degree, and even had some post graduate course work. He taught school and wrote instructional books, as well as instructing frequently for various colleges across the northeast and the mid-Atlantic even some Ivy league schools like Yale. He hunted purely for sport and fly fished often. I never knew him, he passed even before the war, but have seen many pictures of him with sporting gear. The photos were not the best and it is hard to tell what rods he had but in one photo he is cradling a mid-grade Lefever side by side shotgun. This type of gentleman is who I think was targeted by the early sporting goods industry. All things considered I think everything from manufacture to advertisement was tailored or even omitted by region of the country. This being said truly there was not what we would deem “blue collar” equipment before the World War II but sporting goods did start to be offered to folks outside of the upper crust of society in the interwar years. I think this perhaps was where I was going with my original post and did not state it so well. I was trying to get at an economic class rather than making a distinction of what folks did to earn their daily bread.


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Post 25 Jan 2020, 09:54 • #13 
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pretty country - I made two trips to a power plant in the Maryland woods and farmland last fall, and stayed in a fishing village on Chesapeake Bay.
In fact, the plant had an historic Mason-Dixon marker on their land.

I'll throw up another worthwhile example, Pflueger Gem. This example was May '42 with a badly formulated handle grasp melting from the new reel in the box, and with a new OnePfoot handle grasp.
A great reel with a smooth click-pawl resulting from the large drag gear.
Image Image


Last edited by bulldog1935 on 25 Jan 2020, 10:05, edited 2 times in total.

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Post 25 Jan 2020, 09:57 • #14 
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This is just flat out awesome. I rarely if ever find anyone to talks about this kind of stuff and have never learned so much in one sitting in many years. This goes without mentioning the pictures that are just pure candy.


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Post 25 Jan 2020, 10:05 • #15 
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thanks - this discussion wouldn't fly on TKF

Another definition that works is the jewelry factor, and also applies to shotguns you mentioned on the Medalist thread - if it's jewelry, it's not blue collar.
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Post 25 Jan 2020, 13:05 • #16 
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Man I love that agate that's an upgrade I sprung for on my custom 'boo. That reel is definitely from the bespoke era of fly gear. The newer high end stuff looks far too modern for me to view it as pretty or graceful.


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Post 25 Jan 2020, 15:02 • #17 
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It's a JW Young prewar patent, a sliding agate, 1928
The reel is an Ogden Smiths Exchequer Improved Pattern, c. 1935
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The foot and outer hardware is solid nickel, an OS trademark.

The reel has two Hoffmann radial ball bearings, a click-pawl you can disengage, a variable friction drag, and palming rim.
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but we're way off-topic with this puppy - kind of needless to say, it's a prize and in the two best reels I own and will never part:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15275&start=150#p364722
make sure you keep reading for spy story about the reel...
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15275&start=150#p364984
The reel came from Jamie Maxtone Graham - my Young pattern 15a Lyon & Coulson Varden came from Hoagy B. Carmichael.


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Post 27 Jan 2020, 07:25 • #18 
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bones72 wrote:
Man I love that agate that's an upgrade I sprung for on my custom 'boo. That reel is definitely from the bespoke era of fly gear. The newer high end stuff looks far too modern for me to view it as pretty or graceful.

Well, if you do want to change the subject to modern benchmade fly reels to match a modern benchmade cane fly rod, I'd recommend grabbing a Ted Godfrey reel while they're around - IMO, the best-designed modern conventional frame fly reel.
The only one made to let you get into the spool at streamside (very important if your tippet gets behind the spool - also made to lube without disassembling the reel, and a great adjustable click-pawl.
https://www.tedgodfrey.com/8-new-WESTMINSTER55.shtml
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Last edited by bulldog1935 on 27 Jan 2020, 11:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Post 27 Jan 2020, 08:58 • #19 
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Trev wrote:
I have a couple Weber Kalahatch reels that must have been working man stuff. I only know they were in a "lot" with something I wanted at the time.
And I suppose the 1554 SalTrout would qualify, not sure about the all brass 1555?

Trev made a good call on the SalTrout 1554, made prewar from the early '20s and reintroduced in the late '50s for a short run into the 60s.
Consider the 1555 to be a big brass shelf piece, with a giant foot that fits few applications; the 1558 is a wire trolling reel.
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Capacity is up to a DT5 or WF8 with a little backing, or go down a size on each for very workable backing.
The foot fits almost everything, the caliper clicker is stout, long-wearing, and the spring can be tweaked to change winding bias.
All the Pflueger skeleton reels are superior because of full-width spool bushing. The Sal-Trout spindle is an oil reservoir with a weep-hole, and you can oil the reel through the hole in the thumbscrew.
No grief on the bakelite handle grasp. The earlier versions of this reel also have a painted black spool and the earliest have the beauty clear amber grasp.
The reel is exceptionally lightweight, and this one has 40 yards of lead core trolling line beneath the backing to balance 8-1/2' cane or glass.
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Frame backplate looks different on the postwar reels.
Tom has one of these I sold him still sealed in the original factory cello inside the box.
And yes, Ross did not invent the daisy cut-out, which goes back to Rochester Carlton in the previous century.
Image


Last edited by bulldog1935 on 28 Jan 2020, 10:16, edited 5 times in total.

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Post 27 Jan 2020, 09:33 • #20 
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The 1555 foot fits my Fenwick, St Croix and W&M 'glass rods, I haven't fished with it but probably will. My doubt of it being "blue collar" was in the cost of the brass and I'm not sure it brass was cheap or costly at the time. fwiw, the foot doesn't appear to have been cut or filed it still has some paint. Wonder if different feet in different runs.
The Weber reel is a Duncan Briggs, I believe? '50s? Certainly blue collar.


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Post 27 Jan 2020, 10:12 • #21 
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I have a 1555 shelf piece. I did have one with bad paint, stripped the rest of the paint, the reel came out nicely, and I sold it.
Image
But the reel I have now is not painted, instead bronzed (factory chemically patinated) gunmetal finish, and it's really gorgeous.
I have a 4Bros Seminole with the same finish.
I'll get some camera time and edit this post.


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Post 28 Jan 2020, 08:24 • #22 
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wow !!!! That brass reel is gorgeous.


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Post 29 Jan 2020, 10:41 • #23 
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Here are those two brass Gunmetal finish Pfluegers, 4Bros Seminole and SalTrout 1555
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The thin formed two-prong Pflueger brass foot on the Seminole, Delight, and Progress skeleton reels will fit any sliding band,
and you can add tension by bending them a little.
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The 80- and 100-yard foot stamps have different meanings (posted the Sal Trout paper above).
From similar paper for Progress, 80 yards on the Seminole is for size G silk braid (3-wt when you wax it, and it would match well with Leonard 37, 38 or 39);
100 yards on the SalTrout is for size F enameled braid, which was fairly coarse, though the 45 yards size C enamel would work with the rod that would match this reel.

These reels were chemically bronzed from the factory.
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From the form of the bulldog stamp, early 20s SalTrout
The dog's a bit different on the painted reel from the last post - his head's bigger and he has jowls.
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I dug out a close-up of the stamp on the stripped painted brass 1555, which matches the later (still prewar) stamp and marking scheme on the left.

Pflueger began marking their reels with logo and model names in 1915 - the same year they bought Redifor.
Image clear amber handle grasp


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Post 29 Jan 2020, 11:52 • #24 
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Ron asked me to add this photo here. This is the Airex family portrait. These reels were post WWII made by Lionel (yes, the toy train company). Although they were also marked Meisselbach, this was likely an infringement - if the Meisselbach name was registered as a trademark. They are die cast metal with some plastic parts. The engineering is such that there was very little handwork to complete the reel from the castings.

The majority of these reels were given the name Ablette. The family starts with the 370 (front right), which is the smallest and has a single pawl and no line guard. To it's left is the 371 373, which has the line guard and two pawls. The 372 371 is a larger capacity 370 (left front - although this one is a 375 without the line guard subbing for it's missing brother). I have not bagged one for the collection yet. The 375 is the larger capacity 371 373 (rear right). The 377 has an interesting variable drag design and the other features of the 375. Spare spools were available. The release is under that unobtainium, black plastic dome in the center of the spool. [Corrected the model numbers and added more photos and comments - Tom]

I've added photos of the interior of the 370 and 373 to show the single/double pawl setup. You can see both reels came from the same mold. The 370 shows the depressions in place for the second pawl and spring stud. The 373 shows tapped holes in place for anyone that wished to switch the line guard positions. The next photo is the backs of the 375 and 377. The adjustable drag knob is not well protected. I have to wonder how many of these were broken off the reel. The other Ablettes are almost bomb-proof. Finally, a photo of the 'manual'. Airex was not fussy about flipping the pawls from left to right. While it is nice to have the pay/wind feel significantly different, these reels aren't blessed with a tuna stopping drag. If you hook into something big on classic glass with an Ablette, you are in for an exciting ride! The 370/373 can probably hold 3/4 weight lines with a little backing while the 371/375/377 are more for a 5/6 weight line.

The reel in the left back is the Airex Taurus for saltwater and heavy fresh water. It is an anti-reverse reel in that the winding plate will not move backwards, but the winding knob will spin when you release it. For what it is worth, it is not well designed. Mine was frozen from corrosion and there was no easy way to disassemble it without cutting rivets. Compared to the Ablettes, the Taurus is a clunker designed by a committee that had never fly fished.


Tom



Model 370 and 373 - interiors
Model 375 and 377 - back view
The amazing Ablette manual, the back side was a parts list


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Post 29 Jan 2020, 12:28 • #25 
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Thanks Tom
One of these was marked for Martin and really dressed up, including adjustable spring tension on one click-pawl:
Great post with photos by middlemac
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11838

I've also been able to convert a couple of the Airex Ablette reels to LHW by reshaping the pawl springs, the same way I do to prewar Youngs and Hardys.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5550&start=25#p247945
I borrowed Kevin's photo here to show the Airex click-pawl
Image

As far as the trademark infringement Tom mentioned:
Meisselbach never made a reel after the start of WWII, but continued in their industrial roots. Airex borrowed the name for the instant tradition it invokes.
When Phil White was researching his book on Meisselbach and visited their plant for records, no one there was aware Airex had used the name.
Meisselbach made one of the better skeleton reels (along with many others) - this reel has an easy screw-adjustable bias for LH/RH wind, and a spare pawl built in.
Image Image
Meisselbach was most famous for their TriPart and Okeh falling-guide baitcasters made from nickel-silver tubing, which even Meek copied in their Bluegrass 33.
Image Image


Last edited by bulldog1935 on 30 Jan 2020, 09:11, edited 2 times in total.

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