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Mechanical Bits
Post 22 Mar 2011, 11:53 • #26 
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Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 16303
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
sneno77 wrote:
Picked up an older 1494 last year and just tore it apart to see what Pfoot parts I needed to get it up and running. I need a few springs and such, but my biggest problem is the drag screw. It's been tightened all the way down (appears to even be flexing inside) and the head is missing. What can I do to get this out so I can replace it? Thanks.[/quote]
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Mechanical Bits
Post 23 May 2011, 07:01 • #27 
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Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 16303
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
a lot of good those old British line Grades do you, so I'm throwing you a bone

Image
3-1/2" MW - WF9 or DT6 with 75 yds backing
3-1/2" contracted - WF7 or DT4 with 50 yds backing
3-1/4" - WF6 or DT4 with 30 yds backing
3" - WF4 or DT3 with 20 yds backing


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Re: Mechanical Bits
Post 08 Feb 2012, 19:23 • #28 
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Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 16303
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
here's the tuning pawl springs thread on the new Clark's board
http://classicflyrodforum.com/forum/vie. .. 44&p=49886


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Re: Mechanical Bits
Post 17 Jun 2012, 08:56 • #29 
Guide
Joined: 05/15/12
Posts: 194
Location: Longview-Tyler metro Texas, USA
Hollow ground screwdriver kit ... would this be a gunsmith set? I have a set, but after viewing that chart again, I should think about a new set. I have a kit of Kobalt ten piece small screwdrivers. The rest of my screwdrivers are Craftsman. (the red and clear, and blue and clear kind)


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Re: Mechanical Bits
Post 12 Feb 2013, 09:25 • #30 
Sport
Joined: 12/23/12
Posts: 47
Location: Houston, TX
Here's the kit I use from Brownells:

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools. .. -tip-sets/

Yes it is expensive but it is well worth it. About the same price a low end better tying vise or fly reel. The bits precisely ground and are softer than the much cheaper kits. This is important that the bit to twist prior to marring/stripping a valuable screw. Replacement screws for irreplacable reels/guns/etc can't be had but bits can be.

It will last a lifetime, I've had my kit for over 15 years and Brownells has ALL of the replacement bits only a key stroke away. You can add additional bits/handles as desired as their service is great. This assure a perfect fit every time. No compromise fits. I buy extras if I have to custom grind a bit for special screw.

If you buy used firearms first look at the screws, you will quickly see who uses cheap hard steel screwdrivers. Same with reels! Poor workmanship is very easy to spot.

Might buy a can of Kroil and a light hammer with brass and plastic head (for those stuck screws) while there. Their catalog is a great read.

Pete A.


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Re: Mechanical Bits
Post 23 Feb 2013, 08:35 • #31 
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Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 16303
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
ColdPass wrote:
I'd like to buy some loctite for the small machine screws in some of my older reels. Those of you who've recommended it, I assume you mean Loctite 222 "purple"? Blue or red would likely be permanent on those little screws if the package information is correct. Of course a home improvement store doesn't carry the purple.

answer borrowed from the levergunners board - note there is a pdf to loctite technical literature
http://levergunscommunity.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=46377
Tycer wrote:
Chart PDF from Henkel http://www.henkelna.com/us/content_data. .. _Guide.pdf

Source: http://rc.runryder.com/helicopter/t642764p1/

271, Red: High strength threadlocker for larger diameter hardware.
262, Red: High strength threadlocker for for hardware smaller than that which uses 271 (more like heli parts). Either does a good job for our stuff, however. I see 271 most commonly in auto parts stores.
609, Green: Retaining compound, high strength, for mounting slip fit bearings to shafts. An appropriate product for tail boxes.
603, Green: Retaining compound, high strength, similar to 609 but good where the parts may be a little oily. Good for mounting oilite bushings in housings, BTW.
640: Green: Retaining compound, high strength. Similar to 609 and 603. Lacks the oil tolerance of 603. I use it where I might have trouble with adjacent bearing contamination with the product, such as start shaft bearing blocks, since it has a little greater viscosity than 603.
638, Green, rather thick: Ultra strong retaining compound for assemblies with a marked amount of slop in the fit, min 0.004". Don't try to use this stuff for our normal bearings on healthy shafts. It sets almost immediately in the tight gap, and you'll never have the chance to get the bearing into place.
290, Green: Wicking product for thread locking AFTER assembly. Medium strength, much stronger than 242 blue in my experience. Not the correct choice per loctite for bearing mounting.
242, 243 Blue: Classic medium strength threadlocker for most of our threadlocking applications. 243 is the oil tolerant version.
222MS, Purple: Low strength threadlocker for small diameter or otherwise delicate fasteners.
Bottom line:
NEVER choose a loctite product by color alone.

yes, Purple 222MS is the correct choice.

https://www.google.com/shopping/product. .. scoring:tp


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Re: Mechanical Bits
Post 23 Feb 2013, 13:46 • #32 
Guide
Joined: 05/15/12
Posts: 194
Location: Longview-Tyler metro Texas, USA
I have never seen the Purple. I use the Blue. I guess those babies are ON THERE.


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Re: Mechanical Bits
Post 26 Dec 2013, 22:57 • #33 
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Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 16303
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
a mechanical bit worth repeating
mclabrook wrote:
my pflueger 1498 got pf'ed up when loading a line up at Orvis the other day. But have no pfear, I have a replacement latch on the way to pfix it up.

no line-winding machines for filling backing on your reel - a latch or handle may be damaged on your vintage reel, and odds are the parts are not available.

bulldog1935 wrote:
never let them put your nice reels on a motorized winding machine - always wind by hand.

what he said


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Re: Mechanical Bits
Post 26 Feb 2014, 09:28 • #34 
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Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 16303
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
update on this old topic
viewtopic.php?p=44598#p44598
For a friend I took on converting his 1394 to LHW.
It requires grinding out the pin so you can rotate the pawl to the 3rd position. The intact pin is denoted by the red arrowhead.
I used a dremel pencil grinder to grind down the pin on the other side.
Then the spring has to be bent to give lead in LHW.
That requires straightening out the knee that contacts the pawl, and adding bend to the knee between the pawl and stanchion.
Here is a very successful result, with LHW shown on the left and original RHW still in the right pawl assembly (arrow side).
Image
Sorry about the glare effects - I haven't yet cleaned the old grease from the right side - but it was the best view of the springs.

Note that others have reported they were able to push the pins down, rotate the pawl and push the pins back up. If the pins in your reel will do it, it's certainly the preferred option. I tried this first with a punch and jeweler's hammer to the limit of my comfort, and the pencil grinder was option 2.


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Re: Mechanical Bits
Post 15 Mar 2014, 23:53 • #35 
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Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
good advice here when you're dealing with small and springy parts
bulldog1935 wrote:
On the Martin helical spring drag, if you want to increase tension you stretch the spring. A little bit goes a long way.

FishOn wrote:
When I removed the spring I lost my hold of it and it shot off onto my tan shaggy carpet, thought it was gone forever but by a miracle I found it :lol. The stretch on the spring made no difference. I almost wonder if it is a non stock spring. The 77SS I got had a bunch of grease all around the levers of the spring mechanism. The MC78 is pretty dry overall. Could it be a lack of lube that is hindering the proper tension being transferred to the pawl? I need to get some grease and oil and see if it makes any difference. The 77SS at its lowest setting seems to have more resistance than the MC78 at its highest setting.

bulldog1935 wrote:
um, supposed to put the reel in a shoebox - guess I should have mentioned that, but after so many years, I thought everybody knew it ...

Nicodelbosque wrote:
It's happened to all of us. Boxes are good. So is a fine-meshed strainer if you're cleaning reels and bits over the sink. Don't ask me how I know ...
Nick

and yes, put a fine-mesh colander in the sink when you're washing and rinsing reel parts.
Even if you get your hand in the garbage disposal, it's tough to lift anything out ...


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Re: Mechanical Bits
Post 16 Mar 2014, 05:48 • #36 
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Joined: 04/20/07
Posts: 7740
Location: US-ME
I'm surprised folks are still losing and not finding parts, as this board contains one of the best problem-solution discussions of the topic ever, inspired by a sprung Young:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1584?page=1


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Re: Mechanical Bits
Post 03 Dec 2014, 00:07 • #37 
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Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 16303
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
carlz wrote:
Ron,
Is there a good reference for all the terms you use? Check, Bushing, Check adjustment, runnout, end-play, wobble. I can sort of figure these out, but I'm sure I'm missing something.

ok
a check is anything that keeps the spool from over-spinning - keeps it in check.
Can be a caliper clicker, a clockwork click-pawl or a drag (a brake).
Some are fixed tension, some are adjustable. If you think about it, a drag has to be adjustable, because there is constant wear on the friction surface.

A spindle and bushing ride against each other in rotation and hopefully fit tight enough to keep the spool properly aligned in the frame.
In a conventional reel, there are little bushings in the end plates and the spindle is part of the spool, spinning inside the fixed bushings.
Image
In a pin reel, the spindle is fixed in the reel frame, and the bushing is part of the spool and spins with the spool around the fixed spindle.
Image
The greater the area of the bushing, the longer it lasts because contact stresses are lower.
When you wind a reel, the loads aren't just radial, there is a thrust load as significant as the radial load, and it tries to change the bushing opening from a cylinder into a cone. That produces wobble. Really good reel designs have thrust bearings, not radial bearings (Hardy Perfect).
Image
You reel makers, if you use a tapered roller bearing, you can absorb both radial and thrust loads in one bearing.

When a spool slides from side to side in the frame, that is end play. The measurement of the end play is runout.
A run-out adjustment dials out the end play.

btw, some modern pin reels incorporate a tapered roller bearing - one I have is a Redington RS (actually have 2, on my salt 10-wt)


Last edited by bulldog1935 on 03 Dec 2014, 07:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mechanical Bits
Post 03 Dec 2014, 01:30 • #38 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 09/18/09
Posts: 4793
Location: Washington DC Region
Thank you.


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Re: Mechanical Bits
Post 03 Dec 2014, 07:41 • #39 
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Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 16303
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
you're welcome


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Re: Mechanical Bits
Post 08 Jan 2015, 10:44 • #40 
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Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 16303
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
bulldog1935 wrote:
a lot of good those old British line Grades do you, so I'm throwing you a bone
Image
3-1/2" MW - WF9 or DT6 with 75 yds backing
3-1/2" contracted - WF7 or DT4 with 50 yds backing
3-1/4" - WF6 or DT4 with 30 yds backing
3" - WF4 or DT3 with 20 yds backing
here are published capacities on Young salmon sizes - subtract 3 line sizes or about 100 yds backing for DT
4 inch W - WF9 & 250 yds of backing.
4 inch EW - WF11 & 350 yds of backing.
4-¼ inch EW - WF12 & 350 yds of backing.


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Re: Mechanical Bits
Post 08 Jan 2015, 11:32 • #41 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 09/29/06
Posts: 4425
Location: Willamette Valley, Oregon
Film negatives make good washer spindle shims if your spool has just a bit of play. Ez to replace when needed.


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Re: Mechanical Bits
Post 14 Oct 2015, 07:56 • #42 
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Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 16303
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
richardkl249 wrote:
I won a 3.5 MW beaudex on the auction site, when I received it I noticed that it wasn't 3.5" but actually 4". Good for me, I like that kind of mistake. So I compared the spool of the 4"MW beaudex to my existing 4" MW pridex. I noticed that the spools fit into each reel, the reel seems to function fine but that got to wondering..... Are Beaudex and Pridex spools of same size supposed to be interchangeable? Anyone know this question?
Not generally - may be just on the 4" reels?
I know for sure on the smaller reels, the Beaudex spindle is slightly larger diameter than the Pridex spindle.
Image
both 3" reels
Image
So a Beaudex spool will siide onto a Pridex (not vice-versa), and will engage the latch but you will end up damaging both the Beaudex spool latch bar and bushing. I would check with calipers.


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Re: Mechanical Bits
Post 11 Nov 2015, 07:53 • #43 
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Posts: 16303
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
FishOn wrote:
Hi, I want to give my Hardy Clone a good cleaning using the steps from Bulldog's reel cleaning tutorial. I need to clean off the old caked on grease. I searched the net a bit but couldn't find the proper way to remove the springs. I don't want to bend and alter them in any way as I love the current range of tension. I know it must be simple, but what is the "proper" way if one exists? Thanks
(in case it's not obvious, first remove the pawl)
I use a popsicle stick and push from the inside of the spring fold toward the spring stanchion.
This spreads the spring and either pushes it past the retaining bends, or spreads the retaining bends enough that I can get my thin pliers between the bend and the stanchion and pull it the rest of the way out. You have to be a little careful here and make sure you're lifting on the pliers so you don't scratch the reel backplate.
Also be careful that they pop out with kinetic energy.

Putting them back in can be tougher, since you have to guide the top spring leaf into the tensioner shoe, and the bottom leaf over the pawl stanchion at the same time as you're getting the retaining bends over the spring stanchion. Here start with the bottom leaf alignment over the pawl stanchion, and use a popsicle stick to guide the top leaf into the shoe. Three hands would make it easier, but it can be done - the same hand that is holding the reel has to hold the popsicle stick.

Image


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Re: Mechanical Bits
Post 18 Jan 2016, 21:44 • #44 
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Posts: 16303
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
cebe wrote:
Hey bulldog, what makes the reel non reversible? Is the pawl not slotted like the last one shown above? Or is it the position of the spring that makes them LHW or RHW?
not sure if that's a question or an answer, but I've converted well over 200 RHW postwar Young reels to LHW. (and the spring tuning I do on RHW or LHW Young reels improves them - Hardy, JAF, FishOn, etc.)
http://bulldog1935.u.yuku.com/
Image
if you look at the original hairpin spring check, there are three things that give it a bias. The most obvious is the leverage difference against the spring on opposite sides of the pawl head. In the direction of wind, the pawl is pressing farther out on the spring leaf and has a leverage advantage over the spring. It's especially pronounced on flat-headed pawls, like on the prewar Young shown below.
In pay, the spring gains leverage, since the pawl has to overcome the stiffer side of the spring to allow the drag gear to slip a tooth.
Image
The second factor is less obvious, also leverage, but the fact that the hole/slot in the pawl is asymmetric.

With a round-headed pawl, the spring leverage is not so much a factor, since the round-headed pawl has a small contact patch over the spring regardless of the pawl rotation - in that case, the asymmetry of the pawl slot is the primary source of the leverage difference in wind and pay.
(since you can't see the round-headed pawl beneath a postwar Young stanchion, I'm showing a Hardy)
Image

Simply flipping a pawl often won't allow it to engage at all, to engage too softly, or to not significantly change wind and pay. The third and least obvious thing is the timing of the pawl relative to TDC of the drag gear.
This has to do with the tangent angle of the spring leaf across the head of the pawl - the idea is timing - lead and lag. If you look at the photo just above, the spring has been reshaped to cause the pawl to lead the drag gear in LHW. If it leads too much, it won't engage, and if it lags too much flipping the pawl won't change the tension bias (i.e., wind direction).
I have reshaping postwar Young springs (and Hardy Uniquas, Meeks, etc) down to a science.
Here's a Pridex showing the LHW lead I shoot for.
Image
tougher to see here, but this is my Gilmour with RHW bias and lead
Image
These are automatic for me. I doesn't take me too many spring bends to get both the bias and pay tension I'm shooting for.
I have a calibrated pay flip, and I'm looking to get about 3/4-turn out of my flip in pay.
Once I like it, I set-temper the spring so it will keep.

As far as bending springs, 4" Youngs will break without bending, and are very difficult to replace (though I have a few right now). 3" Young springs are very forgiving , but are also hard to replace, as are the pawls. Garry Mill makes replacement springs (and pawls) for everything in between, and I always have these around. Antique Hardy springs and Dingley springs are brittle high carbon and will not bend without breaking. Also, the pawls on early Hardys and Meek have a shortened head on the back side (relative to wind direction) and will not engage the spring at all if you flip them - for those you need to replace with modern Hardy pawls, and modern Hardy springs, which you can bend.

Bending springs requires the right tools - bending pliers - the sharp corners on other pliers (needle-nose) will break springs. Even then I break a few new Hardy springs when I'm converting reels, and have broken just a few Young springs.
But the point is making the adjustments on springs that are replaceable, not antique springs that can't be replaced (take out your Meek and Uniqua original springs, store them, and use new Hardy springs, etc).
I've done the trial and error, and I'm past art to science, and if you take this up, you'll likely have to go through the same learning curve.

I do provide the service. Do the same thing with both springs in a Beaudex, and also drill and tap to move the line guard using the original (obsolete) BA7 thread
Image
Also do me a favor - if you want to send me reels to work on, I'll be delighted to take them on. But please don't send me essay pm's asking for tutorials.


Last edited by bulldog1935 on 19 Jan 2016, 16:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mechanical Bits
Post 19 Jan 2016, 08:03 • #45 
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Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
on the subject of pawl timing (spring tuning), here's an Abel check I improved with a slight bend in the spring
Image
You can see RHW lead here, and this bend altered the wind bias much further than can be accomplished with the Abel cam nuts. (if you wanted to change it to LHW, you'd flip the spring)

If you choose to tinker with this, keep in mind that a little bit goes a long way.


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Re: Mechanical Bits
Post 20 Jan 2016, 11:30 • #46 
Emeritus
Joined: 06/27/07
Posts: 1497
Location: US-NC
Excellent thread, thanks Ron.


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Re: Mechanical Bits
Post 21 Jan 2016, 07:16 • #47 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 16303
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
I started this when I was admin, so we could all learn together (also saves a lot of searching, and the php board doesn't search as well as the old yuku board)


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Re: Mechanical Bits
Post 12 Feb 2016, 20:50 • #48 
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Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 16303
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
Bamboozle wrote:
A question for the tinkerers and/or gunsmiths out there.

I have to reverse the wind of a Cascapedia 2/3/4 which requires me to remove the screw in the S handle. Obviously I need a good wide hollow ground screwdriver to do it right and I don't own any that are suitable (wide & thin enough).

What brand do the experts recommend? I am a believer in good tools purchased once so quality is preferred over something cheaper that will work, but might not last as long. I would also consider a set because I have other uses.

Thanks in advance for any recommendations & advice!

I can recommend this set - I've used it for a dozen years, though I did replace the handle once.
http://ads.midwayusa.com/product/297593/wheeler-engineering-28-piece-space-saver-gunsmithing-screwdriver-set
(it doesn't seem to hot-link, try cut and paste)
It's the Wheeler Engineering 28-pc set, $12.99 plus shipping - about $20 total and worth it.

the trick, before you place a bit, try 3 and see which one fits best - will even use my Ott magnifier to check fit.
Image


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Re: Mechanical Bits
Post 18 Feb 2016, 07:23 • #49 
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Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 16303
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
bvandeuson wrote:
I see the term, 60yds, 40yds, etc. applied to many old reels. Exactly what are these size designations referring to? What kind of line?

BB

varied a bit from reel to reel - it's dependent on the application
Image
On this Sal Trout paper (1555), foot mark 100 yds refers to size F braid

But in most smaller reels, Progress, Delite, etc. it's a size G braid.


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Re: Mechanical Bits
Post 18 Feb 2016, 19:57 • #50 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 07/05/10
Posts: 5068
Location: Mid Hudson Valley of New York
Bulldog, thanks for bumping this thread... i'd not read it from the beginning until now and I have to say I really enjoyed every post. Your knowledge is amazing and just as amazing is your willingness to share it on the forum.


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