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Post 17 May 2018, 18:58 • #26 
Guide
Joined: 01/27/12
Posts: 210
Location: US-PA
It's close enough to Bronze for me. Also, to set the record straight , I referred to myself as a "hack" .

It looks to me that the instructions for creating a Garrison seat are in Carmichael's book on Garrison under "Locking Reel Seats". So, it's been out there for 40+ years.


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Post 17 May 2018, 19:03 • #27 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 11/25/09
Posts: 2319
6footrod wrote:
It's close enough to Bronze for me. Also, to set the record straight , I referred to myself as a "hack" .

It looks to me that the instructions for creating a Garrison seat are in Carmichael's book on Garrison under "Locking Reel Seats". So, it's been out there for 40+ years.


Please justify copying the Lemke LC1 for me then.


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Post 17 May 2018, 19:06 • #28 
Master Guide
Joined: 01/21/12
Posts: 462
Location: US-NY
Yes, it's a shame that kenney, graywolf, etc. can have reel seats made just for them and the manufacturer has the balls to not offer those same seats he agreed to make only for them to anyone else.

I dont see what the big deal is either. There's nothing wrong with copying someones product and passing it along as your own.


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Post 17 May 2018, 19:09 • #29 
Master Guide
Joined: 01/21/12
Posts: 462
Location: US-NY
Were the directions in hoagy's book in english or chinese?


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Post 17 May 2018, 19:26 • #30 
Guide
Joined: 11/27/14
Posts: 330
Location: US-NC
If Lemke’s reel seat was a song this would cause a bigger uproar than when Vanilla Ice took the bass line from Queen. At least he changed a note in it and had different lyrics.

Don’t be offended by my opinion, surely not the morality police here or saying what or not to buy.


Last edited by dmiller328 on 17 May 2018, 20:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Post 17 May 2018, 19:42 • #31 
Guide
Joined: 10/30/14
Posts: 326
Location: Cayuga, Ontario, Canada
BobHa wrote:
Tom that is not a comparison, Ron's blanks weren't Mike or Mark's tapers sent to China and replicated. These seats are Joel's seats copied. He owns a small shop who makes his living sell rod components. I am not saying the quality is the same but they even copy the color he anodizes. These seats might even start showing up on low end rods straight from China, so to distinguish himself Joel might have to buy or make more tolling to change his design, until it is copied.


Maybe I didn't make my point clear enough. Let me try again so you can see where I'm coming from.

Let's say that an American rod blank manufacturer has a very well regarded 3 piece 7'6" 3wt rod. Someone else comes along and begins to import a blank from overseas, also a 3 piece 7'6" 3wt rod. Is your first thought that someone shipped the American blank over and tried to duplicate the blank? Or do you instinctively assume that the oversea blank is going to be made from a cheaper material (e-glass vs s-glass), the ferrules fitted with less care, and the overall finish of a lesser quality? So something that is visually very similar can be very different when looked at in depth.

That's how I'm viewing this. Lemke builds beautiful reel seats in America using high quality materials and a wonderful fit an finish. Proof's seats are made overseas with what is most likely a cheaper alloy, and do not have the same level of fit and finish. Visually they are very similar, most likely because Lemke's seats are in a way the standard for quality classic looking reel seats. But when you get beyond the visual aspect they are very different products targeting very different markets.

I hope that clarifies where I'm coming from.


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Post 17 May 2018, 20:38 • #32 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 11/30/11
Posts: 1231
Location: Fresno, CA
Now that I'm in the loop I see the dilemma.

I've seen this happen in other niche hobbies as well. Where a skilled and respected maker has a design taken by a large (relative) company in china and mass produced in much lesser quality then the original. This happened in the high end custom LED EDC flashlight community.

Long story short the company that did it was so maligned by the community that they stopped production on that model of flashlight and even the left over stock of that model is languishing on ebay not being sold. So if a community mobilizes around something like that it can be stopped but its super rare and barely ever happens.


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Post 17 May 2018, 20:40 • #33 
New Member
Joined: 10/09/16
Posts: 16
Location: US-NC
I think Tom S is dead on with this. I live in High Point NC the home of furniture designers. One of the most recognizable chair by Herman Miller is the one linked below. It retails for around $900

http://store.hermanmiller.com/living/ch ... S&start=35

There are plenty of similar chairs on the market like this one that retails for $200

https://www.franceandson.com/collection ... -walnut624


Does Herman Miller care that the design is almost exactly the same? No, not really. Because they know their market and their customer.


Last edited by Wayneo on 17 May 2018, 22:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Post 17 May 2018, 20:53 • #34 
Master Guide
Joined: 01/21/12
Posts: 462
Location: US-NY
What blank costs $400? I guess you're right it's ok to copy someone else's work and sell it.


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Post 17 May 2018, 21:06 • #35 
Master Guide
Joined: 12/31/13
Posts: 519
Location: US-Mount Pleasant, SC
Right now I am *THIS* close to asking if that guy can make MAGA hats in his factory (if they aren't doing it already). Check your hats, gentlemen.


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Post 17 May 2018, 22:08 • #36 
Guide
Joined: 01/25/13
Posts: 338
Location: Avondale Az
Actually Wayneo you could not be further from the truth in your statement. It is not in the least a concern to me on the retail sales. Joel is a personal friend and trusted and respected member of the fly fishing community. This is his only business and what he is dependent on to make a living. I have other income sources to keep me going since I am retired.


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Post 18 May 2018, 06:18 • #37 
Master Guide
Joined: 02/24/12
Posts: 456
Location: US-MI
Hi everyone,

Thanks you for all of the honest feedback. Despite my silence I have been following the thread with each new post. With a recent turn in the thread to the larger political rhetoric “MAGA” I felt I needed to chime in. Like many here I enjoy fishing and working on rods, in part, as a way to temporarily escape some of the back and forth of what is todays political scene. Regardless of which side you come down on its exhausting. I’m glad that Wayneo has seen fit to remove the personal attacks against Ron and others. I don’t know Ron that well, but a forum for people who love fishing is no place to sling mud. It breaks down community. Community feedback has always been at the heard of my business and so I would like to offer an olive branch. I have no illusion that it will satisfy everyone, here it is: When I move through my current stocks of the Garrison seat I will no longer carry the line and no additional seats will be brought on (I have seen titanium as well as the sideband seats available in other markets). I do appreciate all of the feedback the good the bad, and even the ugly.

Thanks,

Matt


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Post 18 May 2018, 06:35 • #38 
Master Guide
Joined: 12/31/13
Posts: 519
Location: US-Mount Pleasant, SC
I'm still trying to figure out how to make my attempts at humor less incisive but still maintain topicality. It's a knife's edge, I tell ya.

These are the difficult conversations we need to have sometimes. I make no apologies in stating that there's something just not right about undercutting the livelihood of someone who has the drive to innovate and bring something original to market. I'd not like it if someone built a cheap offshore-rolled rod and signed my name to it. Furthermore, what I find odd is the desire of some people to defend poor form, but that's not surprising in 2018.

Jack Handey once said, "It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man." I think what he was trying to say (or not) was that it's easy to screw up, but it takes guts to screw up and then make it right. Matt, in my opinion you're doing the right thing. Again, just my opinion and worth zilch in terms of your business.


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Post 18 May 2018, 07:09 • #39 
Guide
Joined: 05/22/16
Posts: 159
Location: US-Eastern KY
Just a question, and not meant to offend anyone, but does Mr. Lemke have any patent or manufacturing rights to the Garrison style reel seat.


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Post 18 May 2018, 10:20 • #40 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 11/25/09
Posts: 2319
mdraft1 wrote:
Hi everyone,

Thanks you for all of the honest feedback. Despite my silence I have been following the thread with each new post. With a recent turn in the thread to the larger political rhetoric “MAGA” I felt I needed to chime in. Like many here I enjoy fishing and working on rods, in part, as a way to temporarily escape some of the back and forth of what is todays political scene. Regardless of which side you come down on its exhausting. I’m glad that Wayneo has seen fit to remove the personal attacks against Ron and others. I don’t know Ron that well, but a forum for people who love fishing is no place to sling mud. It breaks down community. Community feedback has always been at the heard of my business and so I would like to offer an olive branch. I have no illusion that it will satisfy everyone, here it is: When I move through my current stocks of the Garrison seat I will no longer carry the line and no additional seats will be brought on (I have seen titanium as well as the sideband seats available in other markets). I do appreciate all of the feedback the good the bad, and even the ugly.

Thanks,

Matt


This forum has been off the hinges a bit lately with mud slinging, however sometimes it's earned. There is no doubt that the Garrison style designed or inspired reel seat has been produced for a very long time. What has most of us here upset is the pattern of behavior. In the last week (for those of you with access to instagram) Proof has posted new products with cork bark on the end (Christian's idea), magnets on butt caps for hook keepers (Barclay's idea), and a facsimile of Lemke's Garrison seat (not to mention the blatant copy of Lemke's LC1 that Proof sells as the Atlas).
Proof's style of business is recognizable, copy or steal intellectual property, have it produced by a cheaper supplier, and undercut the original. What surprises a lot of us here is the defense and support of the behavior.
Claiming to appreciate the feedback of the community isn't a sufficient response and not sure what an olive branch will accomplish. This forum is a community of fiberglass fly fishers, product manufacturing, and consumers, and as a community we shouldn't tolerate this behavior.

Dusty


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Post 18 May 2018, 11:54 • #41 
Master Guide
Joined: 04/27/07
Posts: 645
Location: Missouri
Surprising here to see Matt thrown under the bus, seems to me he's brought several products out that at least a few people appreciate and its to bad that more don't understand the reality of marketing and manufacturing in Asia. Anyone purchase lighting products made in China? Gone through a Walmart or Home Depot lately? Yep, of course they've been knocking off products for years, its the reality of a world market and I am sure fly rod reel seats aren't a huge business, a niche, what Matt has done is give us one more option and I don't think that's wrong at all. Building a rod, make your own choice about the components the Proof components seem to be similar but not the same, if you think its easy starting a business walk a mile in Matt's shoes.


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Post 18 May 2018, 13:25 • #42 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 07/05/10
Posts: 5229
Location: Mid Hudson Valley of New York
i don't see what all the fuss is about. everyone knows proof sells knockoffs.. so what?


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Post 18 May 2018, 13:52 • #43 
Guide
Joined: 10/30/14
Posts: 326
Location: Cayuga, Ontario, Canada
dustdog12 wrote:
This forum has been off the hinges a bit lately with mud slinging, however sometimes it's earned. There is no doubt that the Garrison style designed or inspired reel seat has been produced for a very long time. What has most of us here upset is the pattern of behavior. In the last week (for those of you with access to instagram) Proof has posted new products with cork bark on the end (Christian's idea), magnets on butt caps for hook keepers (Barclay's idea), and a facsimile of Lemke's Garrison seat (not to mention the blatant copy of Lemke's LC1 that Proof sells as the Atlas).
Proof's style of business is recognizable, copy or steal intellectual property, have it produced by a cheaper supplier, and undercut the original. What surprises a lot of us here is the defense and support of the behavior.
Claiming to appreciate the feedback of the community isn't a sufficient response and not sure what an olive branch will accomplish. This forum is a community of fiberglass fly fishers, product manufacturing, and consumers, and as a community we shouldn't tolerate this behavior.

Dusty


Dusty,

With regards to the ideas you have mentioned, at what point do things like that become part of the public domain? Take the cork grip example you list. Once a picture is posted on the internet can you honestly expect that no one is allowed to duplicate it? Or do you think that only a builder can replicate it for themselves and their customers? Matt's gone through the legwork and invested in the inventory to make it a commercially viable product, something that I don't think Christian really wants to get into. Same thing with magnet. Great idea on Barclay's part, but he's in the business of building rods, not selling components. Is it OK for a builder to duplicate, but not a component retailer? When would it become acceptable for a retailer to offer it?


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Post 18 May 2018, 15:49 • #44 
Master Guide
Joined: 04/27/07
Posts: 645
Location: Missouri
What about the reelseats already being sold that are similar to the Garrison style?
As an example, look at a Bellinger Dickerson reelseat or the older no longer produced Struble D1 one of my personal favorites. Is there only room for a single version of this type of reelseat, if so it would be an unusual marketplace.

http://www.genuinebellinger.com/store/d ... arrel.html

Image


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Post 18 May 2018, 15:57 • #45 
Guide
Joined: 05/22/16
Posts: 159
Location: US-Eastern KY
I have to agree with Tom S. At what point does this stop? Do I have to scrap my Heddon 300 series reels because they are a "Hardy knock-off"? Do I have to remove Pac-Bay snake guides because they are not Snake Brand Original snake guides? Can I only use a Ritz style grip made by someone with the rights bestowed by Charles Ritz? Big box stores, lighting, auto parts, you name it, almost everything is a copy of something and these days mostly made in China. I really don't think Mr. Lemke is going to loose much business over this as his market niche is different from Proof's. Some people will just have to a Lemke seat and that's fine as that market segment will always be there. Proof offers an alternative and lower priced product for the market share that desires that option. I also think it's fine that Mr. Lemke has a friend that has his best interests in mind. As a small business owner/operator I can appreciate that loyalty and concern, but I also have a hard time with any supplier that offers products through dealer only system. Let Matt run his business and let Joel run his.


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Post 18 May 2018, 17:38 • #46 
Master Guide
Joined: 12/31/13
Posts: 519
Location: US-Mount Pleasant, SC
This is where knowing some history helps (hint: Struble D1 might have had a tiny bit of input from Joel).

Also, Bellinger would have an interesting business model if theirs was to copy stuff and charge MORE for it.

The age of the educated consumer is dead.


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Post 18 May 2018, 17:46 • #47 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 11/30/11
Posts: 1231
Location: Fresno, CA
I guess as a consumer you could only choose the style you like best and then buy from the seller that offers the best quality and service. There are always going to be people that care about the originality of the maker and want to own something that was crafted with care and in limited numbers. Then there will be the consumer that could care less about who made it and just wants something they think is cool looking to them for the best price possible. There probably is room for both.


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Post 18 May 2018, 18:11 • #48 
Guide
Joined: 11/27/14
Posts: 330
Location: US-NC
It is to my knowledge ,correct me if I am wrong, that Lemke designed the seat for Struble when they were in business. Lemke did not directly copy any of Garrison’s seats from what I have seen, only similarity is the pocketed butt. While the Atlas is certainly a direct copy of the Lemke.At least the Heddon reels were made a different color than Hardy.With that said nobody is telling folks what or not to buy on here.


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Post 19 May 2018, 10:21 • #49 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 10/30/09
Posts: 2527
Location: Winston-Salem, NC
A theme that is running through here is an idea of similar to a political discussion where everyone has strong opinions that likely won’t change in this context. So, why keep talking and trying to help others understand why we're coming from a certain angle? Because it's important.
When it all comes down to it, it's about fishing which is a simple and accessible past time that some of us make a living doing but for most it's a hobby. But when livelihoods get threatened (perceived or real) people on both sides carry some strong opinions. In order for anything to be effective, they need to have a civil discussion, which is very difficult to do on the interwebnets because of real and perceived slights and 'tones of voice', keyboard jockeys that feel they can spout anything they want because they're protected by a screen, etc. Thankfully there's not a whole lot of that here but there is some.

I have no problem with importing goods from other countries and markets. I do have a problem with it when it's done deceivingly. It’s basically like saying ‘I like Dusty’s rods but don’t want to pay his prices, so I’m going to hire someone to duplicate it at half the price.' People have sent me pictures of other's rods and asked me to build a copy of it which I don't feel is right. But I do agree with builders, makers, designers, etc. talking with each other about how to best handle sticky situations.
I know full well that a lot of folks don't have the cashflow to buy what they want. That's why folks build their own rods and find other, less expensive ways to get what they want. That's also why the inexpensive mass produced rods are popular. Which it fine with me and it gets people fishing. But when someone takes another person's creation, duplicates it exactly then doesn't even mention the person who is originally responsible for it that's another situation entirely. In this time there is hardly anything original, no matter the realm. And it gets sticky when one person copied another person that was inspired by another person and so on. That's why these discussions are sometimes not all that beneficial but when they are done well then it's a good thing to help clarify ideas and intentions and not let the passive aggressive people take over.

While I don't agree with taking ideas and not 'citing sources', asking permission and other personal discussions for inspiration and ideas, (for instance my full wood reel seats are directly inspired by Tomo Ijuin, I've had several personal discussions with him about this and he has encouraged and given me his blessing to carry on with them.)

Matt posted a simple announcement about a new reel seat that he is offering. I honestly think he should have made it different than Joel's but I'm not so sure this is the place to discuss that? Another forum would be a better place to discuss the differences of copying, intellectual property, idea sourcing, etc.

Looking through all these posts, the first thing that I notice is that at the top of the page under 'Forum Guide' it says
"These discussions MUST stay on the original topic. Please be courteous and considerate."
but that's not necessarily what's going on here. I think this is better carried on, if necessary, in a different forum.


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Post 19 May 2018, 10:27 • #50 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 09/18/09
Posts: 5561
Location: Relocated to the Drought Stricken West.
While I am happy that this discussion has run its course, I am also very happy that it has been civil.

Thank you everyone for making this a great forum.


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