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Post 10 Oct 2013, 04:39 • #26 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 09/22/09
Posts: 1494
Location: Sweden
I have no problem with rods manufactured in Asia. But you need to clarify who made it, and to what specs. Chinese factories copying others is negative thing. But there are several examples of the opposite.

Loop Tackle has been making their blanks in a factory in South Korea for many years, and I would dare to say very few high-end companies can compete with their nano resin technology on the latest Cross S1 series. Japan is another example, where Shimano has been leading the evolution of advanced graphite fly rods for many years. The Shimano Freestone FS-series is a legendary light weight family of rods. Extremely smooth with quick recovery and with a extremely thin blank diameter. I have never touched a similar graphite rod, and the Freestones where manufactured in the 90's. I promise to post some pics of it in the near future. We also have a bunch of indie builders in Japan, working with local manufacturers.

The phenomenon of favorizing your own country is universal. Here in Sweden, 80% of all fly fishermen use Danielsson reels, because "they are the best" and "they are Swedish". Asia is a big no no. US made is much better, but not as good as Swedish reels. To my ears, this is all ridiculous. You have to be more specific in your critique, and not judge a man by his hair.

Christian


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Post 10 Oct 2013, 05:00 • #27 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 06/24/11
Posts: 1144
Location: Belgium
OOOH that grip? On a 7'6" glass rod? How does it work with a three point grip or a trigger finger grip? Baffling ...


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Post 10 Oct 2013, 07:16 • #28 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 11/24/06
Posts: 1507
Location: Beautiful View, WA
Christian, I don't think anyone is saying Asian (meaning Korean or Chinese, not Kab) are bad, just that the $500 price for a rod of that origin is high. I remain open minded and may take Cameron up on the offer of a test drive.


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Post 10 Oct 2013, 07:39 • #29 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 10/09/09
Posts: 2796
Location: US-NM
I can't get past the grip and at 500 good luck ... aurelio


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Post 10 Oct 2013, 08:13 • #30 
Master Guide
Joined: 12/27/11
Posts: 435
Location: US-MA
Lugan wrote:
Christian, I don't think anyone is saying Asian (meaning Korean or Chinese, not Kab) are bad, just that the $500 price for a rod of that origin is high.

Exactly.

Cameron wrote:
This fly rod may be most interesting for those who travel a lot and looking for a premium pack rod.

I would expect Korean made rods at this price point to be made with high quality components and better than average cork. Any idea what components Leland had put on the rod?


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Post 10 Oct 2013, 09:05 • #31 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 09/22/09
Posts: 1494
Location: Sweden
Korean and Chinese is quite some difference, if you ask me. But I know what you mean, if you compare to a Steffen factory build. But the Leland has more bling to it. The pricing might be right? Hard to tell. The market is a strange thing.


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Post 10 Oct 2013, 10:01 • #32 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 04/20/07
Posts: 8920
Location: US-ME
Development costs and marketing costs ultimately affect the price more than manufacturing costs. Niche product, small volume maker/seller = higher price. If the development effort was worthwhile, the item might be worth the price. And remember that is the announced retail price, not the actual selling price, which remains to be seen.


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Post 10 Oct 2013, 11:58 • #33 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 01/02/12
Posts: 1859
Location: Gig Harbor, WA
Here we go again with this mindset that because of the rod's provenance, it must be unworthy of the price and our consideration. We even leap to the conclusion that a rod in this price point must have "high quality components and better than average cork" then dismiss it because we have no idea what it really has. Apart from personal preference as to handle configuration, I can see the functionality of a 6pc 4wt rod for backpacking as I do quite a bit myself. From all the comments in this forum, no one has yet used the finished product nor are we truly informed as to the actual cost. Yet the absence of such information doesn't seem to deter the naysayers. I find this kind of absolutism difficult to understand. I have rods made by Kab, James Green, Lamiglass, Winston, Scott and yes, China! They all meet my need and serve their function.

I agree with Christian we need to know more about this product before any informed judgement can be made.


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Post 11 Oct 2013, 10:11 • #34 
Sport
Joined: 09/04/13
Posts: 48
Location: Denver, Colorado
Does the rod tube at least have a bottle opener like some of the others? Haha, I actually think putting bottle openers on their tubes is neat.


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Post 11 Oct 2013, 12:46 • #35 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 07/22/11
Posts: 1720
Location: US-TX
retiredfisher1 wrote:
Here we go again with this mindset that because of the rod's provenance, it must be unworthy of the price and our consideration. We even leap to the conclusion that a rod in this price point must have "high quality components and better than average cork" then dismiss it because we have no idea what it really has. Apart from personal preference as to handle configuration, I can see the functionality of a 6pc 4wt rod for backpacking as I do quite a bit myself. From all the comments in this forum, no one has yet used the finished product nor are we truly informed as to the actual cost. Yet the absence of such information doesn't seem to deter the naysayers. I find this kind of absolutism difficult to understand. I have rods made by Kab, James Green, Lamiglass, Winston, Scott and yes, China! They all meet my need and serve their function.

I agree with Christian we need to know more about this product before any informed judgement can be made.

True, it is speculation until all the facts are known. But this I know. I paid xyz amount of dollars from a modern rod maker/designer/builder (Steffens) that I and others really enjoy; I think it is fair to say a modern benchmark has been established. Based on known facts, I can certainly compare other rods against that benchmark. If it is speculated that a new rod coming out into the market will be $100 more than a benchmark then I could reasonably guess/hope that there is something to justify the extra cost. Now the tricky part is that something. For me, it is the performance or taper. For others, it could be the brand or the bling. I like Steffen rods because the bling factor is notably absent so you are simply left with taper or performance and that makes a good control or reference rod for price and performance, imho.

Given the lack of specific rod/blank origins and action of the Leland rod, the auxiliary features like ferrule plugs, grip and pack rod pieces do not warrant the extra $100 speculated asking price compared to my reference rod, for me.


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Post 13 Oct 2013, 10:52 • #36 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 12/26/09
Posts: 1106
Location: Richmond, TX
I saw this rod come across my Facebook news feed a few days ago, and my initial thoughts were (1) I do not care for the grip shape at all (a cigar shaped grip with downlocking reel seat would have been much more pleasing / appropriate IMO), and (2) the price was non starter regardless of any other information (I would invest in a Morgan, Kenny, Kabuto, Orvis long before one of these rods).

A few other comments following up on this topic (again strictly my opinions). ..

The 6 piece configuration does not bother me and could be useful at times.

With respect to a 4 year development effort and associated costs, those are internal Leland Outfitters sunk costs. Trying to recoup development costs when the market does not support the price is a fallacy pursued by too many businesses. The price is determined by what the market will bear. Adding bling like ferrule plugs and a fancy rod tube to justify a higher price does not sway me (admittedly I look at rod tubes as purely functional, and a section of PVC pipe is fine with me).

I do not have an issue with the provenance. It is the taper and quality that are important.

Andrew.

Update for grammatical correction -- thank you Carl.


Last edited by rewynd on 18 Oct 2013, 22:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Post 18 Oct 2013, 20:02 • #37 
Guide
Joined: 06/01/12
Posts: 343
Location: East TN
rewynd wrote:
Trying to recoup development costs when the market does not support the price is a fallacy pursued by too many businesses. The price is determined by what the market will bear. Adding bling like ferrule plugs and a fancy rod tube to justify a higher price does not sway me (admittedly I look at rod tubes as purely functional, and a section of PVC pipe is fine with me).

I do not have an issue with the provenance. It is the taper and quality that are important.

100% on the money.

To add, it isn't racism or nationalism that drives the fact that I don't care for Korean/Chinese blanks; I don't like them because they are not designed or built by people who fish. Not all Asian rods are bad. I will buy as many light, small water rods from Japan that I can get my hands on because they are generally very nice tapers for the waters I fish and are designed/built by someone who actually uses them for their intended purpose.


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Post 19 Oct 2013, 00:31 • #38 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 12/29/10
Posts: 1048
Location: Osage Orange Range, North Texas, US
Quote:
.. . Korean/Chinese blanks; I don't like them because they are not designed or built by people who fish.

China doesn't fish;
Charlie don't surf?




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Post 19 Oct 2013, 01:44 • #39 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 11/30/11
Posts: 1231
Location: Fresno, CA
I don't think he was saying that china doesn't fish. We all know that couldn't be further from the truth. But I think it is safe to assume that fly rods being built in china are likely not being built by people that understand what a good fly rod taper needs to do, and all the dynamics involved therein.

Example; I'm going to be less inclined to buy a fly rod from a maker predominately making spinning tackle, and visa-versa.


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Post 19 Oct 2013, 09:50 • #40 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 09/18/09
Posts: 5561
Location: Relocated to the Drought Stricken West.
chform wrote:
I have no problem with rods manufactured in Asia. But you need to clarify who made it, and to what specs. Chinese factories copying others is negative thing. But there are several examples of the opposite.

Since I started the mess (with a bit of flame bait). I think Christian hit this nail on the head.

If a company spends effort on R&D and another company just copies them, this is a problem. It puts the companies that do R&D out of business. If a company does their own R&D and ships the production offshore (and maintains quality standards), it provides me with a cheaper product, while they can still remain in business. As far as I know Leland falls into this category.

On top of this, we get some people who love designing and building rods and develop exceptional products. We should be supporting these people, because they are the ones who make this sport special.

Carl


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Post 19 Oct 2013, 14:54 • #41 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 01/02/12
Posts: 1859
Location: Gig Harbor, WA
Carl - well said!


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Post 19 Oct 2013, 18:40 • #42 
Master Guide
Joined: 09/02/12
Posts: 829
Location: Upstate NY
If your a company like Leland what are your options if you did want to get the blank rolled in the us?

Are there any?


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Post 19 Oct 2013, 19:00 • #43 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 11/30/11
Posts: 1231
Location: Fresno, CA
Lordideme wrote:
If your a company like Leland what are your options if you did want to get the blank rolled in the us?

Are there any?

There are a lot options, they could contract with any number of the American blank builders ...


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Post 19 Oct 2013, 19:07 • #44 
Master Guide
Joined: 09/02/12
Posts: 829
Location: Upstate NY
Glass enthusiast can you name them?


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Post 19 Oct 2013, 19:29 • #45 
Master Guide
Joined: 09/02/12
Posts: 829
Location: Upstate NY
I can think of one off the top of my head Kerry Burkheimer.He does Tom Morgans blanks.I have one on the way this week

I don't know If Mark steffen deals in bulk like Leland might want.Mike McFarland?. Orvis,scott,Sage,T&T and the othe big guys aren't going to help Leland out and why should the there competing with each other.

I realize I might have not thought threw my original built in Aisa argument.

Because again who can Leland use?

I gave you all Burkheimer ...


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Post 19 Oct 2013, 19:54 • #46 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 11/30/11
Posts: 1231
Location: Fresno, CA
Steffan bros
McFarland

Lamiglas
Scott
Thomas and Thomas
South fork
James green

Edited, those were just off the top of my head ...


Last edited by Glass Enthusiast on 19 Oct 2013, 20:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Post 19 Oct 2013, 20:13 • #47 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 12/26/09
Posts: 1106
Location: Richmond, TX
Larry Kenny does not make (roll) his own blanks. I believe he has his blanks made to his specifications (tapers, etc.) on his own proprietary mandrels by CTS in New Zealand. (I could be mistaken on who actually manufactures his blanks.)

With regards to Leland, CTS is probably one of the few non Asian sources of blanks that can support their commercial rod production requirements. Smaller companies such as Mike McFarland are simply not set up / do not have the resources to meet those type of production requirements (without sacrificing their own rod making). (This is not in anyway a negative toward Mike, I simply referenced him as an example.)

Andrew.


Last edited by rewynd on 19 Oct 2013, 20:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Post 19 Oct 2013, 20:20 • #48 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 11/30/11
Posts: 1231
Location: Fresno, CA
rewynd wrote:
Larry Kenny does not make (roll) his own blanks. I believe he has his blanks made to his specifications (tapers, etc.) on his own proprietary mandrels by CTS in New Zealand. (I could be mistaken on who actually manufactures his blanks.)

Andrew.

Ahh ok I thought he was in house/in shop rolling, thanks for clearing that up.

One of these days 20 years from now we're are all going to find out all of our beloved rods were made in NZ.

CTS is shaping up to kind of being the modern equivalent to Phillipson ...


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Post 19 Oct 2013, 21:30 • #49 
Master Guide
Joined: 09/02/12
Posts: 829
Location: Upstate NY
I not sure If Steffen can handle the bulk that Leland wants.

If you think Scott or T&T is gong to roll blanks you have another thing comming (sorry a little harsh)After all we can't buy a Scott f2 blank.We can buy T&T blanks ... but can Leland get them to roll there custome taper in house I doubt it..If Scott and T&T did that Leland rod would be. $700

Where and who does larry Kenny's blanks come from glass enthusiast?

I might be way out of line (sorry Tom).We hear way to many Mcfarland horror stories on the board.Its the big monkey in the room that very few talk about.Reading the trends would you go to Mike..Yes i own a 8' 5wt 4 piece mcfarland yellow glass rod love it. ..Try to Pm mike..You can't because the administrators won't let him get PM's anymore from the little I know anyway ...

Lamiglass quality had gone way down all the good people have left.I know of one person who got a blank for lamiglass that was trash.One of there reps would look a it before he got a new blank.Twenty years ago I am going to guess it would have been no questions asked here your new blank ...

They could use south fork the redingtons are great people do and would they help Leland?

James Green ... Are his rods rolled in hous in the USA?I would love a confermation on that ... Because I am real close to ordering one of his switch rod blanks if that is the case.

Not to pick on you glass enthusiast you said "There are a lot options, they could contract with any number of the American blank builders ...

Are there that many guys?


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Post 20 Oct 2013, 12:36 • #50 
Administrator
Joined: 01/10/06
Posts: 7811
Location: Holly Springs, NC
Guys - you are ruining this forum. The idea of What's New is to simply learn about new products on our market. The idea was NOT to belittle, criticize, discourage, disparage, dissect, and abuse. Why would a rod builder post about his products HERE? So he can be run through the wringer?

This thread was about a new rod from Leland. If you were perhaps actually interested in buying one, you had an opportunity to ask questions about a new rod from Leland. Cameron and I would have done everything we could to get answers for you.

This thread is not, and should not have been, about who rolls blanks for Larry Kenney. It is not about Chinese fly fishermen. It is not about Steffen, Lami, McFarland, CTS, T&T, South Fork, Phillipson, Asian sourcing, Burkeheimer, Morgan, Green, Orvis, Scott, Sage, Redington, Echo, Hardy, Fenwick, SilaFlex, or ActionRod. It should not have devolved to random, uninformed speculation.

This thread was about a new rod from Leland.

I just posted new guidelines about this forum. I hope someday this section will be a place where a rod builder will feel comfortable posting about his new products. I would like our forum members to have the most current, up to date, and accurate information possible. To get that information, said forum members should treat new products with a little courtesy and post with discretion. As it stands now, if I were a rod builder, I would avoid this forum like the plague.

Tom


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