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Post 30 Sep 2013, 15:51 • #26 
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Joined: 03/16/08
Posts: 3540
Location: Upstate-NY
after handling these in-person a few months ago,
I can attest to the fact that: a) they do feel slightly different than classic McFarland tapers and b) the hand-applied finish is *very* handsome
overall very, very nice builds ...

it's curious how every time a "new" 'glass offering hits the market for more than say $600,
that it's met with the utmost scrutiny and clamor.

I, personally, have no plans to ever buy a fiberglass rod in this price range (no matter the Maker);
but I certainly refrain from disparaging other fishermen who do.


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Post 30 Sep 2013, 17:20 • #27 
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Corlay, what do you mean when you say they "feel slightly different than classic McFarland tapers"? Could you please be more specific? Thanks!


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Post 30 Sep 2013, 17:36 • #28 
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I'm not sure there is a classic McF taper. I own and have owned quite a few and they all have tapers different from each other. "Spruce Creek" on the rod just means it was made by Mike -- it may have little similarity to other Spruce Creeks of the same length and line weight. Which makes it difficult to know what to expect when you buy a McF rod. In my experience.


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Post 30 Sep 2013, 18:01 • #29 
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Its hard to give an accurate description of rod tapers. I would say that in general, Bills tapers might be just a touch softer than my rods, at least my current models. I think the only real way to evaluate the rods is to cast them. I will say that I can't imagine anyone being disappointed in one of them.


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Post 30 Sep 2013, 18:43 • #30 
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Tiptop, you make it sound like Mike simply freehands patterns and sells whatever comes out. Mike may tweak patterns in an effort to refine a certain taper but by no means are they vastly different rods. I feel his 8'8" #4 S-glass is by now a "classic" McFarland and all the ones I've cast are exactly the same taper with the same feel.

This thread is of course about the new Bill Harms glass offerings but seems to have gone off on a McFarland tangent and further, some comments have begun to have an all too familiar tone. For years I have read on this forum how fiberglass gets no respect. Now when companies like Orvis and rodmakers like Bill Harms and others are coming out with great new glass rods, all I read are comments complaining about price and nitpicking the chosen cosmetic details. It's a wonder anybody makes the effort in the face of so much negativity.


Last edited by Duff on 30 Sep 2013, 20:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Post 30 Sep 2013, 18:49 • #31 
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It would be interesting to see how Harms' Marinaro inspired ideas about convex tapers translate to glass.


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Post 30 Sep 2013, 19:05 • #32 
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Well, for what it's worth, I'm going to start saving my change for the 7'8 5 weight. My favorite McFarland tapers are his older Spruce Creeks, the ones that are softer than his current rods. A Harms/McFarland collaboration might yeild a similar soft action gem. I feel fairly confident that it is a rod that I would like very much.


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Post 02 Oct 2013, 09:31 • #33 
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Joined: 05/08/06
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Well I have a Bill Harms 8' 5wt bamboo and it is very nice rod. Bill is a true gentleman and does exceptional work. If one can afford and chooses to purchase one of Bill's glass offerings I am sure they will be thrilled. For those who think they are overpriced go with other options that will satisfy them, no need to complain at all.


Last edited by rsagebrush on 03 Oct 2013, 13:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Post 02 Oct 2013, 16:11 • #34 
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The Cummings of the future? No. When those pioneer glass builders/customizers/experimenters were doing their thing, the technology was relatively new and being refined, the actions the material was best suited for were being created and refined, and so on for lengths, ferrules, cloths, resins. And even cosmetics and finishes were in a major era of development and refinement.

Glass rods now are only being reinvented. Few boutique builders will ever have the renown and corresponding value of pioneer work. Some might, but that is highly speculative.

If they are good fishing rods--many by custom builders who don't understand the material or its best fly fishing applications are not--they may retain value plus or minus, and long from now have a specialty aura that adds value. But not like Cummings or a few others.

I'm not knocking this particular offering at all. It is good news. A guy who knows bamboo ought to be able to do a darn good job with 'glass, not withstanding that some have tried and couldn't do much good, usually because of poor choice of blanks.

Someone has to test the waters in a high price niche for 'glass. Good for this builder, and let's hope the outcome satisfies the customers in this niche. Very well explained by rsagebrush in the post above; anything that expands the market for 'glass rod is welcome and expands options.


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Post 02 Oct 2013, 20:23 • #35 
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Joined: 04/25/07
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I saw those rods at the Hardy Cup and was not aware of who Bill Harms was as I know little about bamboo builders. First a great Gentlemen and the rods were stunning in appearance. Unique lengths and guys raved about their lawn casting. Price issue to be honest I had to go to Bob Selb web site to refresh my memory. Let me say this Scott Radian , Sage One and Helios 2 cost as much if not more! I say it comes down to individual choices but I rather have a rod from Bill than a big rod company.


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Post 03 Oct 2013, 05:22 • #36 
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To clear things up from the git-go, Bill is not now "making" glass rods, he's now building them. Mike McFarland makes glass rods. IMHO, if you make the blank, you made the rod. That said, I would rather buy a glass rod built by a top notch bamboo rod maker than a factory rod any day. If you decide to sell a few years down the road, you'll likely get more than you initially paid for the rod. Not because of the rod but because of the maker/builder. A true investment that's fun to boot!


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Post 03 Oct 2013, 06:57 • #37 
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"If you decide to sell a few years down the road, you'll likely get more than you initially paid for the rod. Not because of the rod but because of the maker/builder. A true investment that's fun to boot!"

Label me as overly negative if you want, but I have to disagree with this statement. Almost without exception, fishing rods are lousy monetary investments. All you have to do is look at the resale prices to know this is true. Even with top name contemporary builders. A very few may eventually (30-50 years?) have higher value if they are kept in EX condition but the vast majority won't. The real value of the rods is the pleasure of owning and admiring fine work and the utility they provide in a pastime we love.


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Post 03 Oct 2013, 07:44 • #38 
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tiptop wrote:
"If you decide to sell a few years down the road, you'll likely get more than you initially paid for the rod. Not because of the rod but because of the maker/builder. A true investment that's fun to boot!"

Label me as overly negative if you want, but I have to disagree with this statement. Almost without exception, fishing rods are lousy monetary investments. All you have to do is look at the resale prices to know this is true. Even with top name contemporary builders. A very few may eventually (30-50 years?) have higher value if they are kept in EX condition but the vast majority won't. The real value of the rods is the pleasure of owning and admiring fine work and the utility they provide in a pastime we love.

Agreed.


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Post 03 Oct 2013, 08:41 • #39 
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6footrod, Bill may not be actually rolling the blanks but he was the one who worked out the tapers with Mike and made the decisions. I would certainly call them proprietary tapers. Russ Peak, Vince Cummings and Ferdinand Claudio designed their own tapers but didn't roll their own blanks. Few would call them "assemblers". With your definition of "rod maker", you wouldn't have many choices.

As to resale value, I would have to agree with you. I have recently sold some glass rods for more than I paid for them including a Scott F70/5 for $1800 a few days ago. Harry wilson didn't roll that Scott blank either.


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Post 03 Oct 2013, 09:12 • #40 
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IMHO there are three levels of this occupation - Builder/Maker/Designer. Perhaps the most appropriate description for Mr. Harms is "Rod designer and builder".


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Post 03 Oct 2013, 09:17 • #41 
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chform wrote:
IMHO there are three levels of this occupation - Builder/Maker/Designer. Perhaps the most appropriate description for Mr. Harms is "Rod designer and builder".

Builder and maker are too close in meaning. I'd call the level of progression Engineer --> Designer --> Maker. The Engineer is responsible for the taper of the blank and its construction. The designer, if this is even truly separate, is the artist creating the aesthetic. The maker assembles the rod. I think designer and maker are normally the same person. Does this make sense, or am I off somewhere?


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Post 03 Oct 2013, 09:27 • #42 
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These are all fine points, as the term "designer" could embrace both construction and design of the rod's action as opposed to its aesthetics. Russ Peak as opposed to Cummings, for instance.

You would have to buy 100 glass rods and wait 30 to 40 years for the chance that one of them would appreciate substantially. If you want to invest, buy 5 good fishing rods and put the money you saved on the other 95 into a bank account. Even at today's interest rates, that will be a better investment albeit not a very good one. It is very hard to speculatively identify the few exceptions. It would be much easier to identify the many custom makes around these days that will lose almost all of their value and be the equivalent of today's $25 flea market find. There were quite a few back in the day, but there is a reason you have never heard of them.

On the other hand, if you like fine custom stuff, get it and enjoy looking at it or, better, fishing with it. Any value retained or appreciated down the road is gravy.


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Post 03 Oct 2013, 09:54 • #43 
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I'm reading Don Philips right now, "The Technology of Fly Rods - An In-Depth Look at the Design of the Modern Fly Rod, Its History and Its Role in Fly Fishing". That book has very little to do with the looks of a rod, and I recommend it deeply.

Having said that, I wouldn't say "design" is a term more related to aestethics. But since English is not my native language, I will let someone else have the final word here ...

I'm very curious about the rods of Mr. Harms. I wouldnt be surprised if I decided to place an order for a rod somewhere in the near future ...


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Post 03 Oct 2013, 12:26 • #44 
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I would like to see better pictures of the rods in detail


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Post 03 Oct 2013, 13:26 • #45 
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Rods, generally a pretty poor investment vehicle.

Also, Tom Morgan does not manufacture his rods but he works out the design and someone else builds them out and I for one am certainly glad he has kept his hand in the business because all his rods in any material are exceptional fishing sticks.

So, kudos to Bill Harms and Mike McFarland for producing some very nice looking and hopefully great fishing rods. I doubt that there will be many made which means they will be quite rare birds in the future.


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Post 03 Oct 2013, 13:48 • #46 
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chform wrote:
IMHO there are three levels of this occupation - Builder/Maker/Designer. Perhaps the most appropriate description for Mr. Harms is "Rod designer and builder".

And that's exactly why I put people like Mark Steffen and Mike McFarland above Peak, Cummings, and Claudio or even Art Neumann. Both Mark and Mike do it ALL, and most importantly are building the blanks on their own equipment, something none of these vintage assemblers and designers did. Also, calling some of the new builders' rods boutique rods is wrong. Virtually every fly shop today has turned into a boutique shop, all selling the same exact clothes, rods, reels, etc. I don't recall ever seeing any of the top glass makers' rods selling new today in the boutique fly shop.


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Post 03 Oct 2013, 14:21 • #47 
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Mr. Harms is painting/finishing the blank, ferruling, turning the grip/reel seat , and wrapping the guides so he is spending considerably more time and effort on his McF made blanks than most custom rod builders; most of whom are simply gluing on components they bought, wrapping guides and finishing the thread with varnish or epoxy; which takes some skill, and some builders are noticeably better than others, but in the end they are just assembling or building a rod. I guess turning a cork grip is custom work but anybody with a drill can do that. So in the end Mr. Harms is going to charge more for his rods because he spends more time building them. At least that's how I see things.

The maker/designer/builder discussion I find interesting. To me to make a fly rod you have to actually make the blank. McFarland and Steffen would be makers. The designer label is a little more complicated because CTS, Lami and now McFarland will custom make blanks for anybody willing to spend the right amt of money. Anybody with a credit card and a phone/computer can call CTS and ask for a custom blank with a (for example) stiff tip, medium mid and soft butt. And CTS will do their best to make what you want. Blanks get mailed back and forth, adjustments made and eventually you'll get what you want. In my mind that doesn't make a person a rod "designer". It just makes you a dude with a credit card and a post office.

I would think to qualify for the title of a rod designer you would have to know about the difference a thousandths of an inch can make in a mandrel taper, how the mil thickness of the prepreg is going to effect the blank and where. And equally as important understand the fiberglass itself. Will this mandrel taper work better with a 70/30 weave? Or Uni? What kind of weave if you go with a woven cloth? The resin matrix is important too and if a designer had ultimate control over everything the resin would be a consideration, as it is with the big companies like Orvis and Sage. These are a few of the things I believe a person who calls himself a rod designer should know about. Most fly fisherman really just want to go fishing and don't get wrapped up in thoughts like these (or care) so they don't worry too much about maker/designer/builder labels. But the members of this forum generally are well informed people so we discuss these things.

So ... I would say that Mr. harms is a world class bamboo designer/maker/builder. But without McFarlands knowledge and assistance he probably couldn't have designed his McF made blanks. I don't have any problem with that and I respect the amount of time and effort he has put into building out the blanks. Hope he has success with his glass rods.


Last edited by a f Baker on 03 Oct 2013, 14:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Post 03 Oct 2013, 14:30 • #48 
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That's pretty much spot-on Mr. Baker.


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Post 03 Oct 2013, 23:13 • #49 
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Ditto, I too agree 100% with Mr. Baker's description of a rod maker vs. rod designer vs. rod builder (and combinations thereof). At least that is also my interpretation of these disciplines.

As for Bill Harms rods, which is the subject of this topic, they look very nice (and are my favorite color of fiberglass rod, similar to the Kabuto amber rods). However, as a rod "builder" (definitely not a "designer", who have my utmost respect) I am generally interested in blanks.

Andrew.


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Post 04 Oct 2013, 04:59 • #50 
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Duff wrote:
6footrod, Bill may not be actually rolling the blanks but he was the one who worked out the tapers with Mike and made the decisions. I would certainly call them proprietary tapers. Russ Peak, Vince Cummings and Ferdinand Claudio designed their own tapers but didn't roll their own blanks. Few would call them "assemblers". With your definition of "rod maker", you wouldn't have many choices.

As to resale value, I would have to agree with you. I have recently sold some glass rods for more than I paid for them including a Scott F70/5 for $1800 a few days ago. Harry wilson didn't roll that Scott blank either.

That is why there are very few Fiberglass Rod "Makers", the vast majority are builders.
Rods built by top notch bamboo rod "makers" are usually always as good an "investment" as a fishing rod can be taking into account the enjoyment factor of owning a nice glass rod. Bank statements just can't produce the same feeling.

I


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