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Ambassador 1500C BFS
Post 30 Aug 2021, 09:48 • #1 
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Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
We talked a bit about light spools and low-inertia bearings for light lures on BFS Air Bearings thread, and also on UL from Shore.
I recently set up an Ambassador 1500C to fish 3- to 5-g lures on a 5-1/2' UL rod in hill country limestone creeks for "Texas brook trout" - our endemic river bass.
First thing I did was replace the stock shielded bearings with Roro 1-10-g Air BFS bearings.



The reel was raced-out by Don Iovino, who removed 1/3 oz from the LW using Avail parts, and delivered with the stock spool.
The stock spool is heavy, and the capacity is also too great for fishing 0.20 mm line, either 5-lb Maxima Ultragreen mono or 10-lb Sufix 832 braid - over 200 yds.



The mass of the stock spool needed centrifugal brake.

Casting my target 3 g, right off, the spool mass was goosey, with start-up backclash even on my lightest lure.
Adding 2 centrifugal shoes, I was able to cast to 50' reliably, which is enough to fish any creek.



I swapped in an Avail spool with mag brake.
The Avail 1520 spool is only 7 g, 2 mm deep - loaded with only 40-50 yds of either mono or braid, probably 1/4 of the mass of the stock loaded spool.



The internal mag brake will attach to either side - attached to the frame side, it lets you use centrifugal, as well.
When I tried this light spool with 2 centrifugal shoes and 4 magnets, it wouldn't cast the light lure more than 35'. It also took a lot of cast effort to get this distance.
I swapped sides on the mag brake, reduced it to 2 magnets, and removed the spool centrifugal and replaced it with the spacer for it that comes with the mag brake.
Note it's also a lot easier to remove the drive pancake to add or remove magnets than to disassemble the spool from the palm side.

Also note with mag brake, your lightest lure needs the most mag. Casting anything heavier, the brake is already set properly.

Without centrifugal and with light mag, the result casting 3 g was 80' casts with 100% reliability.
I could throw it fast and near horizontal, or lob it up high to the same distance, and no hint of backlash.
I don't need to fish 80', but the result means low effort fishing with total cast reliability.


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Re: Ambassador 1500C BFS
Post 30 Aug 2021, 12:16 • #2 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 07/11/14
Posts: 1781
Location: urban Colorado
amazing the ingenuity and design work that's going into aftermarket 1500 and 2500 parts.. a real pretty reel now, nice.

The 1500s are out of my price range.. Trying the Black Max which is pretty much the last Swedish-made Abu, with a disengaging level wind and the spools running on an internal axle (floating spool) so nice and light spool. Possible down to 3-4g according to some online scuttlebutt. No aftermarket spools unfortunately..


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Re: Ambassador 1500C BFS
Post 06 Sep 2021, 10:24 • #3 
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Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19024
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
Doug, you might check Amo Store on Ali Express - that may be BMax3 spool?
ok, never mind, this looks like the new LP Black Max 3
I did find this good link in UK - one of my favorite Ambassadeur resources, and I think your reel does have Ultracast spool:
http://www.realsreels.com/servicing/ser ... ckMax.html
You can find some nice spool bearings, though.

4600 (C4), 5500 and 6500 C3 and later use Abu Ultracast spool design, and these are pretty remarkable - not quite the light weight of the smaller Abu aftermarket spools.

1500C prices on ebay made it easy to choose a reel from Don Iovino. When he has a 1500C, even with the added parts, he lets it go for less than most "field' reels on ebay.
I still plan to shed a little more weight, alloy handle plate in place of chromed brass, same with star drag, and an Avail alloy mainshaft in place of brass.

I did spring for the last Avail 1500C frame I could find - that was a full ounce lighter than the stock brass frame, and it lowers the reel 7.5 mm on the reel seat. The AMO version of the frames are more cost-effective and in stock.


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Here's my 1500C in its final form.



Inside, it has ball-bearing pinion support, alloy main shaft, outside, alloy round drag knob and Haneda Craft alloy handle.
It's really shed a lot of weight, casts 3 g to 80', and I think it matches the rod configuration nicely.


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Re: Ambassador 1500C BFS
Post 02 Nov 2021, 14:30 • #4 
Sport
Joined: 03/13/18
Posts: 28
Location: boston
I've always wondered how these modded abus held up when casting lighter lures.
The magnet modification is an interesting addition- looks like the magnets are unfortunately fixed. Would be cool to see someone make a similar contraption with dynamic braking, similar to the Aldebaran BFS... I've found that the dynamic magnetic braking suits lighter lures much better than centrifugal.


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Re: Ambassador 1500C BFS
Post 04 Nov 2021, 06:31 • #5 
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Joined: 08/10/05
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Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
Unfortunate choice of word.
Daiwa developed their Mag-Force nonlinear mag brake a decade ago, and continue to improve on brake rotors and annular magnets through current SV.
Shimano put their cookies in the variable centrifugal brake basket in the same decade, and their mag brake is an intention to not infringe on Daiwa patents.
Even on Daiwa with fixed or SV brake rotor spools (nonlinear mag brake), you set mag brake for the lightest thing you're going to throw, and you're done.
Only even-lighter lures could need more linear mag at mid-cast.

The seemingly mass-less spool is the key to casting light lures.
Light lures don't give enough jerk to need centrifugal brake at start-up. But if the spool is massive, then the jerk and inertia is from the spool itself.
The same holds true for the Daiwa moving SV rotor - SV doesn't move with light lures, giving you an effective light linear mag brake.
The low inertia of a low-mass spool gets all the brake it needs from very low braking loads, so more of your cast goes into casting, and doesn't need to be subtracted by the brake load.
In the case of old Ambassadeurs, the LW is driven from spool energy during casting, and even drives the spool from start-up jerk, so attention to reducing LW inertia is important.

The Roro-X spool gives up the added mass of the moving SV rotor complication, instead, using a lighter and even thinner-metal fixed brake rotor.
This will cast 3g to almost 50 yards on an 8' rod - the empty spool weighs under 5 g, and not much more when loaded with fine X-braid.
You also gain greater line speed and distance with the 34-mm-dia. spool, compared to the smaller-diameter spool on a packaged BFS reel.
I've fished this in the very same tide pass with 8' light game spinning, and this baitcaster will out-distance comparable spinning tackle.


This isn't the purpose of the little Ambassadeur - it's to fish light lures in close on a short rod, but you still tune to get the most from it.
The stock 1500C spool won't cast without centrifugal brake. You'll note I'm only using 2 fixed magnets with the shallow Avail spool.



Three grams is the lightest I'll cast with it, and 7 g is the most - nothing about this reel will ever need adjusting again - I did all my adjusting up front.

Here's where I did the same thing with an Ambassadeur 4600C to cast 3 g to 15 g.

The most impressive linear-mag-only-brake reel is ZPI Alcance.
Magnesium spool with titanium spindle and tuned mag-brake cam.
The speed and distance of this bench-tuned Revo compares to the aftermarket BFS spools I showed above.


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Post 19 Nov 2022, 12:32 • #6 
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Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
My BR friend redmeandistortion alerted me to new 2500CI IAR right-side plates routinely stocked on e-replacement parts for $47.
It seems Abu is still building these as replacement parts, and restocks them every month or so after my friend and I buy the one or two they deliver.

I've always hated A/R dogs, and much prefer Instant Anti-Reverse gained by a one-way roller-bearing.
On 1500C, the non-IAR allows the drive to back up 1/4 handle turn before the A/R dog snags it.


So I snagged my 2500CI R/S plate, and set out to convert my 1500C to 1500CI.
In addition to the right-side roller-bearing side plate, it requires a new brake plate, new main shaft, new click wheel, and A/R sleeve on the main shaft.
Avail has taken this conversion to next-level with alloy brake plate, alloy main shaft, and alloy click wheel with integral A/R sleeve.
Using these parts sheds more than an ounce from the little reel.
Look Ma, no dog

I also replaced the brass palm plate with Avail alloy, less-significant weight change than the brake plate
The greatest difference between C and CI brake plate drives is the IAR main shaft and main shaft spindle are 6 mm longer.
The click-wheel on IAR is also slightly thinner.

The finished weight of the reel is under 6 oz, comparable to a new low-profile BFS Air.
Avail also offers 6.1 gears, and Valleyhill offers 7.0 gears, but I still prefer my stock 4.7 gears with the short Haneda Craft handle.


I'll also add the conversion completely removes friction and inertia from the drive mechanism.
Winding the 1500C non-IAR feels like you're lifting a brick, and unnatural on the little reel.
That feeling is completely gone in the CI conversion, and it now turns the drive with a wisp - a needed level of slick.


Last edited by bulldog1935 on 21 Nov 2022, 07:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ambassador 1500C BFS
Post 19 Nov 2022, 17:24 • #7 
Master Guide
Joined: 09/23/18
Posts: 600
Location: Eastern Wa
Fascinating stuff Ron! You inspired me and as you know I finally took my first baby step into the new realm of BFS fishing tackle.

This afternoon I put some "spider web" as I would call it Truscend x8 6lb braid on my Alphas Air TW 8.6R (PITA cause i cant see the stuff) and my 4pc 7' Huerco rod. Taped a nickle to the line and set backlash control to "12" with no spool tension and cast it several times, then reduced to an "8" followed by a "6" and "4". Based on response with side and overhead casts i preferred a "6". Then switched to a penny and a "6" worked well for me. No problem whatsoever with 50+ ft casts but didnt try further due to yard size.

Ive used baitcasting reels for over 40 years and NEVER would I have ever believed i could cast a penny directly overhead with pinpoint accuracy. Cant wait to test it on the water!

Thanks to you and others on this forum for your inspiration. I truly believe this will add a new dimension to fishing fun for me!

Mike





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Re: Ambassador 1500C BFS
Post 19 Nov 2022, 18:42 • #8 
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Way to go Mike, looking forward to your fishing reports.

If you like the tinkering, nothing's more fun than racing-out old Ambassadeurs.

And yes, it's Threadline fishing.


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Re: Ambassador 1500C BFS
Post 19 Nov 2022, 18:55 • #9 
Master Guide
Joined: 09/23/18
Posts: 600
Location: Eastern Wa
Just tried casting a 3" curly tail with no weight like a 1/4 ounce jig with no chance of a backlash with perfect straight line precision like i have never experienced in my life! Going to love this thing!!!!



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Re: Ambassador 1500C BFS
Post 21 Nov 2022, 07:42 • #10 
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Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
No intertia. No jerk from lure mass or spool mass - no mid-cast wind backlash because of the mag brake. And everything moves Fast.
Yes, it will spoil you to become your go-to tackle whenever you can use it.

It always cracks me up when people on BR casting a half-oz and up on up to 20-lb mono talk about baitcasters are supposed to be slow, crank down on the spool tension - that's how to avoid backlash.
No, it's by getting the mass out of the spool and line. Your Daiwa SV goes the next step on casting big weights by providing the equivalent of a centrifugal brake that only shows up during start-up jerk, then disappears.
With a properly set up reel, spool tension is right out - set the knob for the onset of side play in freespool.


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Re: Ambassador 1500C BFS
Post 21 Nov 2022, 09:45 • #11 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 05/22/16
Posts: 1750
Location: SJC
Nice ! Congrats on the new reel. I like what you've done with your Abu, too.

The Alphas Air TW doesn't require spool tension adjustment -- it is set from the factory; they call it a "zero adjust" knob for that reason. Of course you can play with it if you really want to ...

A US nickel weighs 5g, according to the US Mint, or a little over 1/6 oz. That kind of weight will sail on BFS reels. I routinely cast 2.5g (1/12 oz) kastmasters on mine, no problem.

I looked up the specs on the braid you are using; the manufacturer says 6# measures 0.06mm, which is pretty darn thin ! I decided to order a spool, too ... if I don't like it I can always use it on one of my spinning reels.

Since we are doing show and tell, I just recently picked up a Silver Creek Air TW, to go with my Silver Creek Glass Progressive 5'1" L.



Pimped out with a carbon fiber handle, Roro wood knobs and a Roro spool.

Also picked up one of Shane's glass BFS rods, a 5'4" UL 4-piece model.



I was really surprised at the action; on the one hand short-distance casting is precise, but I was really amazed at the distance I could get. Still testing it out at the casting pools yet.


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Re: Ambassador 1500C BFS
Post 21 Nov 2022, 12:18 • #12 
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Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
Great post Rob, and gorgeous tackle.
Shane has really upgraded those rods - I may get one next year, but I'm already at the point of having more rods than reels.

Not trying to out-shine, but my raced 1500C (now CI), no centrifugal, and only 2 magnets in Avail internal mag brake...


...will routinely fish 1.5 g


It will cast up to 7 g reliably, which is the top end rod rating.
(If I wanted to cast more weight, could swap the centrifugal back in, but the centrifugal really chokes low-weight cast distance)

Not aimed for distance casting (that's where my LP BFS reels are aimed),
but for accuracy and reliability, fishing close with short stream trout rod.

And even with the short rod, it will cast 2 g to 70' - comparable to your best fly-cast.


I'm also wondering where our reel-tinkerers are, with mini Ambassadeur examples.

Braid thickness - I'm still limiting myself to PE#0.8, 0.15 mm - except on spinning - I can see it and all my BFS reels perform well with it. I don't even think in terms of pound-test or even diameter any more - I'm so accustomed to PE# (gou - Japan traditional silk thread sizing scale)
And while PE#0.8 X-braid is 16-lb test, I put my shock and break allowance in fluoro leader, tied on with improved Allbright knot.


Last edited by bulldog1935 on 22 Nov 2022, 11:30, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Ambassador 1500C BFS
Post 22 Nov 2022, 13:48 • #13 
Master Guide
Joined: 09/23/18
Posts: 600
Location: Eastern Wa
Beautiful combo's Odonata! Ron you are the master tinkerer! Outstanding work. I would tinker more but I have so many hobbies and projects on the backburner i cant dabble too deep with racing out reels at the moment so your exhaustive research and knowledge is a pleasure to read.

I specifically chose a nickel and penny for testcasting my new outfit as I knew they were 5 and 2.5g respectively. I bought the braid without reviewing any material on BFS so what I ordered is unusually small and hard to handle. But I didnt have any backlashes with the penny and know i could cast it far beyond my 60-70 ft back yard.

Keep this good stuff coming!


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Re: Ambassador 1500C BFS
Post 22 Nov 2022, 14:18 • #14 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 07/11/14
Posts: 1781
Location: urban Colorado
these light spools really are a bit of a revelation in anti-backlash.. most of my BFS are the older Abus with no mag brakes, plan to try that out at some point. Even without the mag I have to be casting ultralight less than 1.5g into a headwind to have any kind of troubles with it.

Two more in the lineup for next year, an Abu 3500C which is essentially a 2500C with a palming side plate, and a 4600CB. The CB is a curiosity which has a self-centering disengaged level wind when casting. I have an Avail spool for this but have not yet overhauled the reel.

The 3500 has Mike's Reel Repair ceramic bearings and a ceramic pawl with an Avail spool. The bearings are excellent. There's still some problem with the reel as the spool does not run freely in casting, neither the Avail nor the original. I begin to suspect a misalignment of the frame..





Both of these have the A/R dog which has never failed me yet. I have two reels with the IAR bearings, a 4600C and a modern RevoX. The bearing has failed in both of those reels. The replacements are hard to find and hard to install. So I'm a dog fan ;-)


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Re: Ambassador 1500C BFS
Post 22 Nov 2022, 22:09 • #15 
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Doug, thanks for posting - great reels and great choices.
I re-read your Black Max post, and was going to suggest they make good spools for 3500/3600, also.

A/R dogs work (well, they occasionally get damaged by shock from a big fish - I replaced 3 on Lew's BB-1). But my first BB-25 sold me on roller bearings and full-time IAR.
Image

The thing is, the mini-Ambassadeur IAR all sell for $1000 on ebay, and being able to find the parts and make the conversion was a boon.
Those new 2500CI right-side plates are a surprise treasure find.

ps - 3500 is a tough frame to find - I looked around, none available from Abu through e-replacement parts, and ebay prices are scalpers.

You're going to find the 4600 makes an impressive finesse reel.
Here's the Avail mag brake for the normal medium-frame Ambassadeurs.
Image
Setting it requires taking the left side cover off a few times, which is one reason I use thumbscrews.
But it really only needs to be set once, on the lightest thing you're going to throw.
The single large set screw adjusts the stand-off between the magnets and the spool.
You can also adjust each magnet individually to further fine tune.


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Re: Ambassador 1500C BFS
Post 23 Nov 2022, 00:47 • #16 
Master Guide
Joined: 09/23/18
Posts: 600
Location: Eastern Wa
Ron, after rereading your posts a few times trying to absorb some of the information I watched some youtube videos on tricking out/super tuning ABUs. Looked up prices on the auction site and was floored with what I saw. Even my second baitcaster ever (black 4600c, non rounded plates + red pushbutton) was 5-7x the price i paid for mine new.
Whats driving this? Rarity? Fanatic collectors of discontinued models? Or the BFS revolution for smaller model modding?

Im going to have to scrounge deep in some boxes and see if i can find my old 4600 (may have chucked it years ago during a frantic Spring garage cleanout if it had a birds nest with line behind the spool or partially destroyed by too many saltwater trips with no rinsing or some mechanical failure I lacked the patience to fix). I loved that reel in the early 80s compared to my red 6000 (my first ABU).

I might look more into this and perhaps do some modding with them. Im not sure where they are but i have purchased at least a dozen of various sizes in the past.

I always hated using light line on them and getting line caught behind the spool.


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Re: Ambassador 1500C BFS
Post 23 Nov 2022, 09:19 • #17 
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Mike, ebay prices are certainly skewed by Japan collector prices.
The best way to start on a project is from your own closet, grandad's reel, etc.
Quite simply, this is taking a reel you had no plan to use, and putting it to good use.

Or look for a nice low-use estate reel. Craigslist is a better place to shop than ebay, though I scored my 4600C from an estate hunter selling on ebay, and who was level-headed about asking price and accepting an offer - good timing.
Image

My friend on BR - we compare notes - is only interested in the mini Ambassadeurs for stream fishing, and he has three 2500CI.


Two of them, he paid $100 or $125/ on craigslist - both were steals - one of them was 2 states away and he had a friend going that way field it for him.
The third, he built entirely from parts - buying the best Japanese upgrade parts and filling in the rest from Mike's Reel Repair and e-replacement parts.
By then he knew what to expect, and already liked their performance better than Conquest BFS and Millionaire CT SV70.

Line getting behind the spool - yeah, that's another reason to use thumbscrews.
Image

And while I'm here, Ultracast are by far the best to work on, with good spool options from both Avail and AMO.
Image

Avail also offers spools for the integral-spool-spindle reels, including 3500C, 4500C, CB, and old 5000.


The mini Ambassadeurs are a great choice, because everybody loves them, and parts options are over the top.

Jun Sonada, the smartest baitcast guy in the world, does a good job of prioritizing upgrades in these two articles.
Spool and bearings first - he rates at least single-BB worm gear highly, and BB idler gear as less-effective, but still effective.
https://japantackle.com/tackle_topics/spool_tuneup.htm
https://japantackle.com/Tackle_topics/abu_tuneup.htm

Also keep in mind you don't have to use braid - that's my choice.
Using braid requires ceramic-lined rod guides and ceramic-coated LW rider.
You can use light mono, and medium-frame reels match vintage glass with deep-offset Champion-type handle.
Image

If you want deep-flexing and an UL tip, look at early glass Heddon Pal.
Image


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Re: Ambassador 1500C BFS
Post 23 Nov 2022, 12:21 • #18 
Master Guide
Joined: 09/23/18
Posts: 600
Location: Eastern Wa
Thank you so much Ron for the detailed info. Ill keep you posted with what I end up modding. I ordered several spools of the Truscend x8 stuff in 10#. It might be a better line for my Diawa but I have many more uses I can think of with the line such as deep vertical jigging for walleye, mackinaw and such as well as power trolling deep diving plugs (25-40ft) for walleye on the Columbia. Going to try the 6# stuff ice fishing too.


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Re: Ambassador 1500C BFS
Post 24 Nov 2022, 01:42 • #19 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 07/11/14
Posts: 1781
Location: urban Colorado
mike, my 4600C4 was $50 off ebay.. I still see them in the 50-60 range, should not be hard to find one. Good cosmetics will cost another $40-50.
The Avail spool was $52, ha. At that it's one of the cheaper light spools.
I use PE 0.6 on it and haven't had any issues with it going behind the spool. Maybe once ? The fact that the light spool doesn't backlash much at all is a big help here. I've been fishing this reel most of the year, really enjoy it.

As bulldog says, the ultracast models are not only easy to work on but I like them better for casting. Look for the reelseat number, so far everything I see after 89 is an Ultracast version.





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Re: Ambassador 1500C BFS
Post 24 Nov 2022, 03:16 • #20 
Master Guide
Joined: 09/23/18
Posts: 600
Location: Eastern Wa
Thanks Doug!

Really nice fish.


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Re: Ambassador 1500C BFS
Post 24 Nov 2022, 12:14 • #21 
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Joined: 08/10/05
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Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
Adding about line getting behind spool - it is something you have to consciously avoid.
However, it was just about automatic fishing mono, because of line stiffness and memory - mono on a spool springs outward when it's not under tension.
Better low-memory mono and fluoro are worse about that springy thing - they gain low memory from increased stiffness.
Braid is totally limp, you have to screw up to get it behind the spool.

Braid on the other hand, is frightening to resolve backlash, and because of the cost, you don't want to have to cut it out.
Backlash in braid makes 180-degree loops that are really hard to identify. When I'm setting up a reel - also when I'm fishing one - I have a plastic toothpick just in case I need it to pick backlash in braid.

I always initially set up my reels with mono (6-lb YoZuri hybrid from a bulk spool)
When you're initially setting a fixed internal mag brake, you're looking to find mid-cast backlash with the lightest weight you're going to throw, then trim out the backlash adjusting mag stand-off or number of magnets. Then if you're going to throw heavy weights, you adjust centrifugal toward your heavy end, looking for start-up backlash.

Image Image


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Re: Ambassador 1500C BFS
Post 27 Nov 2022, 16:45 • #22 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 07/11/14
Posts: 1781
Location: urban Colorado
doug in co wrote:
the 3500 has Mike's Reel Repair ceramic bearings and a ceramic pawl with an Avail spool. The bearings are excellent. There's still some problem with the reel as the spool does not run freely in casting, neither the Avail nor the original. I begin to suspect a misalignment of the frame..


well luckily it wasn't the frame. Instead I find a drop of oil on the spool shaft where it goes through the pinion gear, is a drop too much.. polished the shaft and inside the pinion with fine steel wool then metal polish, put on a drop of TS321 and wiped it off, now it spins well. There's still work to be done on the levelwind system of course but it's casting well even so.


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Re: Ambassador 1500C BFS
Post 27 Nov 2022, 18:29 • #23 
Master Guide
Joined: 09/23/18
Posts: 600
Location: Eastern Wa
Glad to hear you dont have a frame problem Doug. I have a slightly rough looking 1500c on the way that i will try modding if its not a dud.

Im going to try my Air TW this week on the water for the first time if weather is acceptable.


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Re: Ambassador 1500C BFS
Post 27 Nov 2022, 19:39 • #24 
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Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
doug in co wrote:
...the 3500 has Mike's Reel Repair ceramic bearings and a ceramic pawl with an Avail spool...

There's still work to be done on the levelwind system of course but it's casting well even so.

Keep in mind the zirconia pawls don't work well with Avail alloy LW worm gear. Avail worm gear should use the stock brass pawl.
Tried one on my 1500C with Avail worm gear, and it just didn't work (brass pawl works great)

The zirconia pawls also works great on stock worm gear if you just want to polish worm gear shafts and bushings.

I have Valleyhill BB worm gear on my 4600C with zirconia pawl, and it's Great - you'd kind of expect it works great with Mike's BB worm gear, also.

And since I'm posting, here's final trim on my 1500C - was ordering from Hedgehog, and threw in the black Avail round drag knob, which wasn't available before - goes well with all the black trim on the reel.


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Re: Ambassador 1500C BFS
Post 28 Nov 2022, 08:27 • #25 
Guide
Joined: 07/22/20
Posts: 175
Location: Ancient City, Florida
My 80’s 4600 doesn’t have any parts available, (I keep checking an old link from Bulldog) When looking at the ebay ones, are there models to avoid or look for (as mentioned above on foot number greater than 89) as far as parts availability and ease of working on. 4600C4? The 2500’s I have seen are way too expensive .


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