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Braided line issues
Post 22 Nov 2020, 20:00 • #1 
Sport
Joined: 01/12/20
Posts: 66
Location: US-TN
I was out today on a small river & had a blast...tons of fish until a rain blew in. But my braided line is letting me down with crazy break offs. I have been using Seaguar smackdown and am dissatisfied with the stuff. This line is just too vulnerable to abrasion. All braided line is vulnerable to abrasion, but this stuff faints at the sight of abrasion. I prefer braid w/ a leader for line memory, feel, and castability, but I am done with this particular line. Anybody using good 10-15 lb braid on their spinning set ups?

Thanks and cheers


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Re: Braided line issues
Post 22 Nov 2020, 20:55 • #2 
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Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19078
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
Braid will not stretch before it breaks.
You need to use heavier fluorocarbon shock tippet.
I do this on all my reels with braid - in the salt, I also add titanium wire leaders to that - titanium wire also stretches before it breaks (unlike stainless).

Improved Allbright knot is a good choice for attaching your fluoro shock tippet to braid - I coat my braid knots with CA and hit them with instant-curing spray.
This is 6-lb braid to 10-lb fluoro. My knots have also gotten a lot cleaner than this photo, and they'll glide through microguides.




I put a perfection loop on my shock tippet, so that I can loop-to-loop a sacrificial piece to tie directly.
Or here, I loop on the titanium micro bite trace for salt UL



I've also gone to all coated braids (no hard braids), either Sufix 832 (Gore fibers) or Florida Fishing Products (which I believe is Varivas from Japan)

ok, I broke off a big snook on 6-lb last week, but I also landed 5 seatrout doubles.


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Re: Braided line issues
Post 22 Nov 2020, 21:26 • #3 
Sport
Joined: 01/12/20
Posts: 66
Location: US-TN
Thanks for the info Bulldog. For freshwater, I will be trying some 832 10lb braid. My triple surgeon leader-to-braid knots have been ok. I am breaking off at weird, random points in the braid. Shock may be my issue. Do you see any problems in using 8 pound leader on 10 pound braid? Maybe I should go up in flouro leader strength and down in braid? Always fun to tinker.


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Re: Braided line issues
Post 23 Nov 2020, 07:18 • #4 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19078
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
yes, you can loop-to-loop braid directly to fluoro tippet.
Should be no problem using lighter tippet on braid. My choice for heavier fluoro is always for abrasion.

Here's my salt system at work, cropped out of bigger photos.
Even if they don't directly bite it, titanium leaders save a lot of line wear against the teeth of thrashing fish, gill plates, spines, hooks, etc.
These photos are static, but the event was very dynamic, and tricky not to get hooked yourself when handling these fish.


One of the Allbright knots I tied this weekend, maintaining tackle from last week's trip, an UL reel I had loaned to my buddy had a spot with 3 strands of the 8-strand braid remaining.

Also noteworthy, this same system, 6-lb braid, 10-lb fluoro, 7-lb titanium wire landed 18" redfish last week.


Last edited by bulldog1935 on 25 Nov 2020, 07:53, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Braided line issues
Post 23 Nov 2020, 07:28 • #5 
Sport
Joined: 01/12/20
Posts: 66
Location: US-TN
Having access to knowledgeable folks that are at least as insane as I am about fishing is, as Borat would say, "very nice".

Viva la Forum!


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Re: Braided line issues
Post 23 Nov 2020, 07:55 • #6 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19078
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
6-lb braid, 8' UL rods (super-progressive taper) are all about getting 1/16th oz out as far as you possibly can.
If you want extreme performance, look to the Japanese, who are crazier than all of us.

Image


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Re: Braided line issues
Post 23 Nov 2020, 09:34 • #7 
Master Guide
Joined: 04/12/18
Posts: 457
I got hooked on braid after my first try with it due to the near-complete lack of stretch and the resulting feel. I always use a five or six-foot leader of fluorocarbon attached with an FG knot. I used to use a uni-to-uni and, later, an Albright, but prefer the FG. If I need to tie on the water I use the Albright. I can never remember how to do the FG properly and easily without being at home under good lighting and with the Internet for reference. ;-)

For light spinning gear, I use a line that has a horrible reputation in its heavier tests: Berkley's Fireline Crystal. I think the lightest offerings fish very well. For my heavier rigs, I use good ol' Power Pro. My leader material of choice is Seaguar AbrazX, which is noticeably more resistant to shredding by Zebra Mussels, rocks, etc.


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Re: Braided line issues
Post 23 Nov 2020, 11:01 • #8 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19078
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
If you're looking for extreme knot toughness and that stretch-before-break factor, Blue Label is the tippet choice - just go up in size to get abrasion allowance.
I'm an Abrazx fan, and keep a 1000-yd bulk spool around, but for filling reels. It's also Seaguar's lowest-stretch fluoro. .
All said, any Seaguar mono/fluoro is the only choice for knot toughness (with Umpqua a close second).

I rarely loan braided reels, but keep fluoro-loaded reels for loaners.
Fishing braid requires too many good habits, and inevitably I loan a reel and the borrower gets the fluoro under the spool.

Last week, loaning a braided UL to Stevo, he was hook-setting on the strike (6-lb braid) - No, they're two separate operations. You save the hook set until after the fish begins a run and give it two or 3 solid pulls with your finger on the spool, but never jerk.


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Re: Braided line issues
Post 23 Nov 2020, 12:38 • #9 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 07/11/14
Posts: 1784
Location: urban Colorado
I've struggled to find a decent 10lb braid. So far best for me has been Spiderwire Stealth. It can be a bit sticky at first, but after fishing a while it loosens up. This handles well and doesn't tangle much, and I've had no abrasion issues with it. Once it wears out a bit it starts to tangle more, but it's still manageable.

- maxima 10lb braid is unfishable for me. Tangles often, knots up tight just while retrieving the tangle so it cannot be unpicked, and cuts itself quickly.
- Powerpro braid has the same problem as the Maxima braid, too limp, works fine until a tangle which is unrecoverable and cuts line. It's marginally better at tangling, so I managed to fish it for several weeks.
Lousy abrasion resistance too, on both of these.

In the heavier braids for salt, 40-60lb, my brother fishes a lot and likes Gliss and Daiwa J-braid X8.
I have some Gliss on order in 12lb, and also Fins Windtamer braid, which supposedly resists tangling well. Also have some of the Sufix 832 but haven't spooled it up yet.. need to fish more I think ;-)


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Re: Braided line issues
Post 24 Nov 2020, 13:58 • #10 
Sport
Joined: 11/09/18
Posts: 33
Location: Beaver, PA
I'm not a big fan of regular Power Pro, but I do like Power Pro Super 8 Slick, and there's very little abrasion from it. This summer I went on a quest for good UL braid for my BFS setups, and settled on this and it's worked very well. Normally I use flouro tippet as leaders, and I'm partial to Seaguar and Cortland


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Re: Braided line issues
Post 24 Nov 2020, 21:32 • #11 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19078
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
I'm in the middle of a baitcast reel project.
Bought the Lew's SP shallow-spool reel to try braid. Part of my plan was to further slick the spool with Air bearings, and found them 50% off in Japan.
The whole goal is improving my 1/8-oz inshore application.
Since the reel is made for pitching and I don't really want to fish 8.3 gears, I slowed it down by also ordering a longer Avail handle from Japan Tackle.
I also can't get the braid I want here, so I'm trying a charge of the newest YGK "Upgrade", thinner-yet braid with thicker coating, and PE No. 1 (0.17 mm = 0.007") is 22 lb-test.
The shallow SP spool should exactly hold the 200-m braid spool.

if you ever need to calculate reel spool capacity, here's a good one:
https://www.pattayafishing.net/fishing- ... estimator/
It also links to an advanced version that lets you estimate mixing lines of different diameters, e.g., backing with a thicker line to take up spool volume, and fishing a thinner working line.
This is also how you can use up those pieces of braid spools you have around - back with bigger and fish smaller. .


Last edited by bulldog1935 on 25 Nov 2020, 07:58, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Braided line issues
Post 24 Nov 2020, 21:33 • #12 
Guide
Joined: 06/21/20
Posts: 141
Lately I've been using Diawa J Braid 8x. This stuff is the smoothest, roundest braid I've found. Put some 6# stuff on my BFS rig and it worked as well as 4# Fireline Crystal. I wish they made the J Braid in 2 or 4 pound rating.

The really nutso UL guys are using 2# JDM ester and nylon lines. I just can go there. :P


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Re: Braided line issues
Post 24 Nov 2020, 22:08 • #13 
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Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19078
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
If you follow Jun's writing on Japan Tackle, he says you shouldn't use finer diameter than P.E. No. 1 on BFS baitcasters.
That diameter is equivalent to 4-lb mono.
Of course he also says you shouldn't use soft braids, but hard braids only on baitcasters.
The 15-lb coated Sufix 832 I've been casting to great distance on my CT reel is not really a comparison, because it measures 0.21 mm (0.008").
I fished the 20-lb 832 on my Lew's Super Duty last week, and the combo was a jewel for accurate casts with 1/8-oz against the edge of the mangroves.
But again, I'm trying to Improve on that, both distance and wind factors, with the BFS spool reel I described above.


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Re: Braided line issues
Post 25 Nov 2020, 02:04 • #14 
Administrator
Joined: 01/10/06
Posts: 7811
Location: Holly Springs, NC
FishFishWish wrote:
Lately I've been using Diawa J Braid 8x. This stuff is the smoothest, roundest braid I've found. Put some 6# stuff on my BFS rig and it worked as well as 4# Fireline Crystal. I wish they made the J Braid in 2 or 4 pound rating.

The really nutso UL guys are using 2# JDM ester and nylon lines. I just can go there. :P

Quality 2 lb test mono is 0.12mm, or 0.005" in diameter (0.5 Gou). Daiwa's published diameter for 6 lb test J Braid is 0.08mm, or 0.003". So you are already twice as nutso as you thought you were!

If Daiwa made J Braid in 2 lb test it would be about 0.05mm. For comparison, human hair is 0.075mm in diameter. That would be nutso.

JDM ester is a material very similar to Dacron. The ester mono does not stretch nearly as much as nylon mono. The ester and nylon line diameters are similar.


Tom


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Re: Braided line issues
Post 25 Nov 2020, 14:26 • #15 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 02/27/16
Posts: 2327
Location: US-IL
Had a lot of problems with the Daiwa braid on trip'It was just too small.6lb nanofil is smaller than 4lb mono and has a slick coating.I have had the same line on one of my ul reels for 5 years with no issues.


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Re: Braided line issues
Post 25 Nov 2020, 17:00 • #16 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19078
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
I mentioned braid requires good habits.
To minimize wind knots (and you may still get one or two you have to cut out),
Always manual bail. You feather the line with your free hand, close the bail with that hand, turn with the rod to take up line slack, and retrieve.
Anything else is a mistake.


Last edited by bulldog1935 on 26 Nov 2020, 08:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Braided line issues
Post 25 Nov 2020, 17:41 • #17 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 02/27/16
Posts: 2327
Location: US-IL
Yep BD,the Daiwa braid was on sale of course.It was so small and light and fishing in heavy wind ,it became very unruly for me.No worries as i always bring lots of extra gear on this trip.


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Re: Braided line issues
Post 25 Nov 2020, 17:58 • #18 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19078
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
the other thing is shallow spools are necessary for fine braid in order to get a flat line lay.


If you try loading a deep spool with hundreds of yards of fine braid, you end up with something other than flat line profile, and no way to get past wind knots.
What happens without a flat profile is line stripping off the spool in a cast hauls multiple line loops with it, making instant wind knot.


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Re: Braided line issues
Post 26 Nov 2020, 10:01 • #19 
Guide
Joined: 06/21/20
Posts: 141
At some point the eyes and fingers can't deal with this lines. Yeah, my entire trip down the BFS trail was kinda nutso. But it was fun, didn't cost much and I learned a few things.


jgestar wrote:
FishFishWish wrote:
Lately I've been using Diawa J Braid 8x. This stuff is the smoothest, roundest braid I've found. Put some 6# stuff on my BFS rig and it worked as well as 4# Fireline Crystal. I wish they made the J Braid in 2 or 4 pound rating.

The really nutso UL guys are using 2# JDM ester and nylon lines. I just can go there. :P

Quality 2 lb test mono is 0.12mm, or 0.005" in diameter (0.5 Gou). Daiwa's published diameter for 6 lb test J Braid is 0.08mm, or 0.003". So you are already twice as nutso as you thought you were!

If Daiwa made J Braid in 2 lb test it would be about 0.05mm. For comparison, human hair is 0.075mm in diameter. That would be nutso.

JDM ester is a material very similar to Dacron. The ester mono does not stretch nearly as much as nylon mono. The ester and nylon line diameters are similar.


Tom


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Re: Braided line issues
Post 27 Nov 2020, 08:30 • #20 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19078
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
backing up to too-slippery line loops and wind knots ("spinning" aka fixed-spool reels)

Loading your line under tension is extremely important to get a dense line lay in addition to a flat one.
You'll find as you fish light lure tension, loose line near the top gains a wind knot tendency. The good news, the reel finds its happy spot after maybe one or two wind knots (and you will have to cut those out and re-work your terminal end).
What would clobber you is if, instead in the first 5 yards, multiple wind knots show up at the end of your cast,
Then, you'll hand-line those casts to recover your lure, and keep building an archive of wasted braid in your pocket.
You also increase this deep wind-knot tendency by not using proper manual bail technique.

But to get that first dense line lay when loading your spool, run the line through a book, here a phone book with a weight on top.


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Re: Braided line issues
Post 05 Dec 2020, 08:19 • #21 
Administrator
Joined: 01/10/06
Posts: 7811
Location: Holly Springs, NC
With mono, I always felt if I was getting wind knots that I had overfilled the spool. Thicker/stiffer line could not be loaded as full on the spool as thinner line. There was a balance between line handling issues if the spool was overfilled and loss of casting distance due to underfilling. I aim for between 1/16 to 1/8 of space left on the spool.

Are the thick phone books of the past available anymore? I certainly wouldn't run thin braid through a useful book. Even Bass pro doesn't send out those big catalogs of years past.


Tom


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Re: Braided line issues
Post 13 Dec 2020, 19:42 • #22 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19078
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
Phone books - the phone company (at least here) doesn't print phone books any more - rather, the county business chamber puts out the small phone book with yellow pages.
I have one of those and a U-line catalog. I fold the line through one, put the other on top, and modulate the tension by how I position the steel wedge. (photo just above)

Line management designed into reels and spools comes up. The ability of the system to lay line flat makes the most difference in wind knots. (Check some of Tackle Advisor's vids where he talks about line management and spool shimming, and look at his loaded spools).
With good-line-management reels like my Stradic et.al and Libra, I fill both braid and fluoro to the bottom of the line-hook groove.
I fill the spool until I can run my fingernail from the bottom of the line hook groove and feel that the line is flush. I wouldn't do this on my old Penns, but quit at their fill-mark in the spools.

Since doing this, I've had exactly two minor wind knots, on the smallest diameter spool to the right (40 mm). After I cut off a total of 20' (not much braid), didn't get another.
Again, manual bail is important - if you're spooling loose line, possibly not even on the spool, all bets are off.
Also, a properly shimmed spool is important (hopefully at the factory) - if your spool stacks line at either end of the spool, you can't load past that.

Tom, your wind knot analysis applies to deep spools and pretty much everything up to the current decade. But if you look at my Vanquish spool, it begins where you said you left off. You can't see what's too much with braid and shallow spools, but you want to load it to that cusp for maximum cast distance. (kinda like your longest cast with a baitcaster is on the cusp of backlash)

The spool I'm actually using on the Vanquish is the doubled-capacity F6 spool, but you can see how this reel lays line, and this reel has never suffered a wind knot.

____________________________


I bought cheap uncoated braid once, KastKing, and found it abrasive and brittle. There was a discussion on TKF "all braid is the same".
I've found braid brands couldn't possibly be more different.
The new generation X-braid I just loaded on my Lew's SP - they're all hard-silicone-coated, not bare woven fiber, begin with a higher-strength core fiber, and thermally fused.
From reading the marketing on similar grades from Japan makers, the new lines have everything braid is not supposed to, shock resistance and elasticity, max possible strength for diameter, wear resistance, and I've already determined it makes phenomenal knots.


I've had fluorocarbon cut itself from past backlash damage. Certainly most braids should be worse at this, though the new generation of Japanese X-braid (YGK), Duel Hardcore X8, etc, may be more resistant to this and all abrasion - the elasticity might have landed me a big snook on UL at Arroyo last time.

Decided to try it on one reel in each of my line classes, PE 0.6, 1.0, 1.5. Ordered 200m in each size from Asian Portal to get a $100 basket and free Fed-Ex.
I'll probably be fishing the 0.6 and the 1.0 this winter. Going to pick my Stradic/Black Hole UL combo to get the new 0.6 (13-lb instead of 6-lb).
____________________________________

I have 2 more reels spooled up with X-braid.
My 5500 CT, with Avail shallow spool, held 200 m of X-braid, and it's 30-lb test - the PE 1.5 line is thinner than its published 0.205 mm diameter.
The 15-lb Suxfix 832 that I removed, published as the same diameter, is thicker than published, because the spool wouldn't quite hold a full 200 yards.
(Didn't waste that good Sufix, used it on my spare FL4000 spool to replace 4-strand Yo-Zuri)

My "heavy-use" UL combo - aiming for redfish on winter glass minnows - Black Hole Rockfish UL rod with Stradic C2000SHG (equivalent to FL 1000), also held a full 200 m of the PE 0.6 X-braid - it's not supposed to hold that much, but 150 m.
Again, this whopping 14-lb test braid is thinner than Sufix 832 6-lb braid.

It ties a serious and thin Allbright knot to 15-lb Blue Label shock leader, and I managed to catch a black 1-m mark in the line colors.


Last edited by bulldog1935 on 17 Dec 2020, 11:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Braided line issues
Post 15 Dec 2020, 16:32 • #23 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 07/11/14
Posts: 1784
Location: urban Colorado
did this for my own reference, thought it might be handy for anyone else used to leaders rather than breaking strain measurements, and trying to figure out PE..

7X 0.004" .10 mm
6X 0.005" .13 mm PE 0.6 .128mm
5X 0.006" .15 mm PE 0.8 .148mm
4X 0.007" .17 mm PE 1 .165mm
3X 0.008" .20 mm PE 1.5 .205mm
2X 0.009" .23 mm

A PE size (e.g PE 0.6, PE 1, PE 2, PE 3 and so on) is based on a Japanese numbering system called "gou", which was originally used to measure the diameter of silk thread.
It's good to see the weirdness of fishing line measurements persisting into the 21st century ;-)


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