It is currently 06 Aug 2020, 05:25


1, 2, 3, 4  Next New Topic Add Reply
Author Message
Any Threadliners?
Post 07 Apr 2020, 08:07 • #1 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 16286
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
The topic of XUL, aka, Threadlining gets hinted at on our forum, will have to say mostly by me and my salt niche application.
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=68726#p370818
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=68637#p371078

There used to be a Threadlining forum, pretty much centered around Joe R's book.
Admitted a finite subject and forum that passed with equally limited interest.
But a topic worth bringing up, and hopefully one that will generate some discussion.

XUL rods are based on fly rod blanks - the Japanese have independently evolved theirs in the same direction and beyond.
They're a blast to fish, and it seems like the rodmakers here would explore the niche if the demand existed (and again, this is the perfect forum to fit them in).

Some photos of Alex fishing both my Takamiya and his custom XUL on TX hill country outings:
(Alex and I were both regular contributors on the Threadliners' forum)

Takamiya
Custom


Last edited by bulldog1935 on 10 Apr 2020, 05:47, edited 1 time in total.

Top
  
Quote
Re: Any Threadliners?
Post 08 Apr 2020, 14:29 • #2 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 05/30/07
Posts: 2311
Location: Arlington, TX
I remember these threads- smaller flies or jig flies on 2 pounds lines. what was the upper bounds for these set ups?


Top
  
Quote
Re: Any Threadliners?
Post 08 Apr 2020, 16:05 • #3 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 16286
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
I don't know that you need an upper bound, especially when you consider modern 6-lb braid is the same diameter as 1.2-lb mono tippet.
The long XUL rod based on a fly rod taper is what defines it for me. They pretty much all will protect that 1.2-lb tippet.
And especially the lower-bound of what you can cast - 0.3, 0.5-g - about 1/64th oz.

The most recent Japanese rods from 8-1/2' to 9'4" are called "All Range" rather than UL - they'll cast 1/32-oz to 3/8 or even 3/4-oz.

here's the specs on my 7-1/2' 10-y-o Takamiya rockfish rod


and some of the other specs landed on 4-lb copolymer


Likewise, I would never think you absolutely need to butcher the bail on a venerable UL spinning reel to fish this way, especially with the easy manual bail function of modern UL spinning reels (this is the micro-size Cetus SS).


Last edited by bulldog1935 on 09 Apr 2020, 05:45, edited 1 time in total.

Top
  
Quote
Re: Any Threadliners?
Post 08 Apr 2020, 18:59 • #4 
Guide
Joined: 08/19/16
Posts: 140
Location: Brazil
bulldog1935 wrote:
The long XUL rod based on a fly rod taper is what defines it for me. They pretty much all will protect that 1.2-lb tippet.
And especially the lower-bound of what you can cast - 0.3, 0.5-g - about 1/64th oz.



OK, I’ll take the bait, so to speak. This topic has aroused my curiosity for a few reasons. If one were to build a threadlining rod from a fly rod blank, what length and weight range do you think would be appropriate?


Top
  
Quote
Re: Any Threadliners?
Post 08 Apr 2020, 20:12 • #5 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 02/27/16
Posts: 1573
Location: US-IL
I just gave away an 8' spinning rod built on a fenwick flyrod blank.I had an old friend who used to build super ul rods on glass fly blanks.I use short glass spinning rods with 6lb nanofil,smaller than 2lb mono for deep panfish in a couple lakes.Have had great success over the years .Sunfish and some giant crappies and a few big white bass.This is a niche presentation as BD states.


Top
  
Quote
Re: Any Threadliners?
Post 08 Apr 2020, 20:31 • #6 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 02/27/16
Posts: 1573
Location: US-IL
I cast 1/64 chin spins with plastics under docks, lay downs,rip rap etc that drops steeply into 20' or more of water.If i get eats close to shore i might then follow up with a fly.They usually want to hit something on the fall and that tiny blade spinning seems to make all the difference.The no stretch of the nanofil and the fact that it casts better than braid ,keeps in contact with the bait and detects even the lightest bites of crappies.A white bass on the other hand jolts the wrist.A long ul rod would be pretty cool.Most are 5' or less and not long distance casters for sure.


Top
  
Quote
Re: Any Threadliners?
Post 08 Apr 2020, 20:41 • #7 
Administrator
Joined: 01/10/06
Posts: 6710
Location: Holly Springs, NC
PampasPete wrote:
If one were to build a threadlining rod from a fly rod blank, what length and weight range do you think would be appropriate?

Perhaps 6-7 feet long and 2-4 weight.

Glass, of course. :)


Top
  
Quote
Re: Any Threadliners?
Post 09 Apr 2020, 08:37 • #8 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 16286
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
Hi Pete, wasn't baiting you, and I haven't read Joe Robinson's book, but I believe most people build their own XUL rods using 6' to 7' blanks, 2- to 4-wt.
Oh yeah, what Tom said...
I also agree an S-glass blank with a progressive dry fly taper would fish great here.
I would think as you push them out past 8', you could use 5- and 6-wt fly rod blanks with wide-lure-range result.
And if you never have the desire to throw 1/4-oz, stick to 3- and 4-wt.

Something else that stands out about these rods is the fish-turning butt on a progressive taper fly rod - the length and that butt give you the leverage on big fish.

The Japanese offer some in short lengths (down to 5') but, to me, it's the 7-1/2' to 8-1/2' rods that get my attention because of the reach they give me with light lures.
In my post that I linked, I mentioned that Yamaga Blanks identifies their 7-1/2' UL as "Stream".
Their 77 TZ/Nano flagship line, they identify as "River Light Game"
These rods move away from what people have come to expect with fast-tip spinning rods and, especially fighting fish, behave like the fly rod tapers they, in fact, are.
Also not unusual to see people casting these with a working leader almost the length of the rod, and loading the rod exactly like a fly rod before they shoot line.
I believe Joe R gave that cast a name, but never read the book.

Here's the Light Game catalog from Plat, my favorite Japan vendor:
https://www.plat.co.jp/shop/catalog/def ... -game.html
Here are load curves for Yamaga Blanks newest series, 5'3" to 8-1/2'
(note the /B models are built as baitcasters)

also note, Yamaga rods are next to impossible to get - you have to get in the production queue with a deposit, and the handfuls of rods that are delivered for retail literally sell out in hours.

If you think about all the venerable spin/fly outfits, they were short para 7-wt with big-loop guides and an ML spinning rod.
Here, you could use single-foot guides and build a nice XUL/fly combo with "Tennessee" cork + rings, that would be a decent light-line fly rod.


Top
  
Quote
Re: Any Threadliners?
Post 09 Apr 2020, 11:09 • #9 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 02/27/16
Posts: 1573
Location: US-IL
I agree with Tom also.Glass is better tool for this type of fishing.My first carbon rod was a ul and the sensitivities was off the charts for me.Glass will really launch these tiny offerings better than modern graphite,the first gen graphite was different animal.Feel was always holding the line.But with modern 0 stretch lines i went back to glass.There are some out there that have the correct guides for braid,I have quite a few vintage full flexing glass ul rods but the guides will groove quickly even with the slicker nanofil.My great gramps,an old self described river rat taught me how to free line minnows in the little creeks that fed the big river for smallies and rockbass with long whippy eagle claw rods.


Top
  
Quote
Re: Any Threadliners?
Post 09 Apr 2020, 12:03 • #10 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 16286
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
The way the Japanese do it is with a super-soft tip, glass or solid-section (solid = lower MOI), long-fast mid, and reinforced butt (possibly using a weave graphite layer) - kinda defines a dry fly taper, such as Thomas Light Special in cane or Heddon T taper in e-glass.
How you use the MOC is what matters - these rods aren't built randomly, but have been refined over a generation.


The seatrout shown above, and five more limits caught on this and matching rods at the end of Jan, were sipping almost invisible glass minnow fry.
The feel of the rod combined with the light lures and cast distance made all the difference in taking fish.
On a dock across the Arroyo, guides with their fares were watching us catch fish.



and yes, an old spincast blank could fit the bill.
In order to make this work, a soft tip, fast mid, and stiff butt is perfect.

the night fishing that follows on this video is pretty lame,
But the casting examples up front, from 1g (1/32 oz) to 10.5g (3/8 oz) are pretty impressive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6HsK9m_DSg&t=


Top
  
Quote
Re: Any Threadliners?
Post 09 Apr 2020, 13:10 • #11 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 07/11/14
Posts: 1199
Location: US-CO
PampasPete wrote:
If one were to build a threadlining rod from a fly rod blank, what length and weight range do you think would be appropriate?


I built mine from an 8'6" glass 6wt blank.. in 1974..
First use was casting bass bugs, before I learned to fly cast, on 4lb mono. Wade out then cast 10-20ft, enough to catch a fish..
It also worked on big catfish and carp..



Later I could not find a decent travel spin rod for light salt, built one from a 10wt fly blank, worked well.. though not threadline except in the narrow sense of using a spinning reel with it..
Nice article on Alexander Wanless, who invented the term 'threadline'
https://activeanglingnz.com/2014/06/11/ ... innovator/

As Tom says - I've been eying the Proof 4wt blanks, for an UL/threadline rod..


Top
  
Quote
Re: Any Threadliners?
Post 09 Apr 2020, 16:15 • #12 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 16286
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
if we're going to broaden this discussion to the prewar historic context, the Brits used threadline to describe all fishing with what we call spinning reels, which of course the Brits never would - they're fixed-spool reels.
The one reel that couldn't be called anything but a threadline reel was the Allcocks Stanley.

In this case, the spool does spin, and the sheeps-crook finger bail precesses for line lay.
Biggest problem with this reel is the combination of casting and winding twists the line, so the spool had to be occasionally let out fully and flipped to reverse the line twist. The rods, which are the focus of our discussion would be different, but what they do have in common is the prewar braided silk used was about 2 to 4 lb test.
I'm also guessing Tom didn't consider he was authoring an argument, rather, agreeing on the fit of the topic.

But for practical purposes, let's say Brit threadline is generally different from what we're talking about on this thread. Joe Robinson's resurgence of the word use to describe XUL spinning, beginning with Very American progressive fly rod tapers is what I'm hoping to discuss.
Thanks for posting your high school example - did you ever try throwing spinners or light jigs?


Top
  
Quote
Re: Any Threadliners?
Post 09 Apr 2020, 16:27 • #13 
Guide
Joined: 08/19/16
Posts: 140
Location: Brazil
Having grown up in the upper Midwest, one of my teenage experiences in the 60s was learning to fish for “steelhead” in small to medium sized rivers. Some guys even then were using fly rods with spinning reels, as I also did at some point.

In the late 70s and through the 80s there were quite a few doing the same type of fishing with “noodle rods”, some of which were fly rods for tight-line nymphing or bait fishing. In that period I built a couple rods like Ron was talking about, with all cork grips (having never heard of a “Tennessee handle”), sliding spinning reel rings, and single-foot Fuji guides. One was built on a 7 ½ foot Fenwick glass 5-weight blank, another was a 7 ½ foot Lamiglass carbon fiber 4 / 5 weight blank, and were used quite successfully with a Mitchell 308 and 6-pound test mono. Those rigs were good for lake-run rainbows up to 11 pounds.

Then came a 6’ 9” St. Croix carbon fiber blank for a 3-weight, which was good with 4-pound test line and leaders of 5X or 6X tippet material. Another one is now in the making, based on a 3-weight Aventik blank. For me these rods have worked well for spin-fishing or fly-fishing.

Incidentally, one of my favorite terminal rigs has been a small spinner with a soft-hackle wet fly tied on a dropper that comes off a barrel swivel about a foot up the line.


Top
  
Quote
Re: Any Threadliners?
Post 09 Apr 2020, 17:31 • #14 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 16286
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
holy cow Pete, instead of asking, looks like you've done this more than the rest of us. Looking forward to photos of your rods, especially the new project.
btw, about steelheading with a fly rod, that's why they made the Colorado reels in the '50s and, of course the PNW had the best of all in Rogue reels.

Another US tradition are kokanee trolling rods, built on 5-wt fly rods, spiral-wrap for baitcasters. The light tip to protect light line, and a powerful butt for turning fish.


Top
  
Quote
Re: Any Threadliners?
Post 09 Apr 2020, 18:23 • #15 
Guide
Joined: 08/19/16
Posts: 140
Location: Brazil
I'm curious about what you mean by the Colorado reels for steelheading with a fly rod. I used that Google thing to find out more and there was a lot about Ross Colorado reels. The nearest that came up in one of those references was "But this ain't your granddaddy's fly reel. Inspired from the original Colorado click and pawl reel from back in the day, the new Colorado LT arrives..."

Were those Colorado reels just big click and pawl reels, perhaps a skeleton reel along the lines of the Pflueger Sal-trout?


Top
  
Quote
Re: Any Threadliners?
Post 09 Apr 2020, 19:16 • #16 
Master Guide
Joined: 03/28/07
Posts: 868
Location: US-TX


I built this on a 2wt Lamiglas fly blank. Makes me chuckle every time I catch a fish. I wish I would have made a longer grip, as it is a little tip heavy. A larger tip top would be better for switching to a fly line. It is a really sweet rod for fly casting.


Top
  
Quote
Re: Any Threadliners?
Post 09 Apr 2020, 19:45 • #17 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 16286
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
Curtis, thanks for posting - that's a beauty.

Pete, Colorado reels - Humphreys, Fre-Line, Magic - they're basically a sideways spincast reel for a fly rod and the new nylon monofilament.

http://www.ricksrods.com/product_view.asp?pID=1001

https://www.fishingtalks.com/fre-line-1 ... -3560.html

https://go2manuals.com/diy/guides/fishi ... g-reel.htm


Top
  
Quote
Re: Any Threadliners?
Post 09 Apr 2020, 19:53 • #18 
Administrator
Joined: 01/10/06
Posts: 6710
Location: Holly Springs, NC
By Colorado reel, here's an earlier FFR discussion Fre-Line. The Rogue Reel was a new one for me.

This is a fun topic. It got me reading the old books on spin fishing. Spinning for American Game Fish by Joseph D. Bates was written in 1952, just as the available tackle began to increase with post WWII manufacturing. While the phrase 'thread line' isn't defined, the early use of the phrase describes spin fishing by literally using cotton, silk, or linen thread for a fishing line. Bates discusses the Japanese gut line used in the late 30s, before moving on to discuss 'modern' nylon lines. At the time, Bates felt braided nylon was the best option for a spinning reel, with monofilament only suitable in 3 lb test or less. Later use of the thread line term usually implied a very light test or fine diameter fishing line.

Perhaps we could create a modern definition of threadlining as fishing with line of 4 lb test or less. If it really gets rolling, we could even create a sub-forum for the subject. The only other site I could find with a similar topic is Ultralight section at the Tackle Tour forum.


Tom


Top
  
Quote
Re: Any Threadliners?
Post 09 Apr 2020, 20:42 • #19 
Global Moderator
Joined: 04/20/07
Posts: 7738
Location: US-ME
Now this discussion/"thread" has my head "spinning" about as bad as a Mitchell 304 when the main gear gave up. Oh, that's bad.

But the topic is great and has me looking forward to the time my grandchildren are ready, a few more years. I've had my spinning down to a minimum for the last 25 years or so after my kids got past the age when we went after mackerel or crappie a lot. Then for me, it was just an occasional prospecting tool to find the crappies and switch to a fly rod. It will be fun to start in again; I already have a blank in mind for the oldest when he can "help" me build his first spinning rod. And I'm studying the reel suggestions carefully.

The old stuff on spinning and "thread line" is great. Here's a good earlier discussion. viewtopic.php?f=33&t=51549&p=227309&hilit=icons#p227309


Top
  
Quote
Re: Any Threadliners?
Post 09 Apr 2020, 20:51 • #20 
Guide
Joined: 03/08/14
Posts: 185
Location: US-MO
Joe R liked to make his spinning rods from 2wt blanks. He was a master of the "wave" casts, and those rods, using the top two sections of a 3 piece blank gave the best flip cast for him.
Ron, I followed your links and ended up ordering a Yamaga Blue Current III 53, I prefer short rods for tiny creeks and streams and feel this rod will be my go to.Thanks for the post


Top
  
Quote
Re: Any Threadliners?
Post 09 Apr 2020, 23:00 • #21 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 16286
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
I hope you can get it - the price is really good, but you may hear from Eriko that the first run is sold out, and the best you can hope is deposit for the next run.
Those dark blue blanks look gorgeous.
Hopefully I'm wrong about that. I tried to order an 82 and got the answer I just described, but the same day, an 83 TZ Nano (the video I linked) showed up in stock along with 7 other models, and I snagged it while Japan slept - all 8 rods were sold by noon that business day.
I know it landed in Chicago, but no telling how long it will take it to get through customs and on to Texas.
This video is better for fishing, especially after 7 min, he's into fish with shoulders
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sU6OwKUZfZs
though I've caught those little horse mackerel on a fly rod both at Isabela Causeway and a platform in Aransas Bay, and they're a hoot.


Top
  
Quote
Re: Any Threadliners?
Post 10 Apr 2020, 01:28 • #22 
Administrator
Joined: 01/10/06
Posts: 6710
Location: Holly Springs, NC
Joe Robinson has been mentioned a couple of times in this thread. For those that haven't seen it, here is the short, slow motion video of him casting a rod made from the top two sections of a 2-weight fly rod blank.

https://youtu.be/kpxWurslYxk


Tom


Top
  
Quote
Re: Any Threadliners?
Post 10 Apr 2020, 05:29 • #23 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 16286
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
:like

Tom and Steve both, thanks for the links you've researched and added to this thread.
I was floored when I went back to my earlier Colorado reel search effort and found the unabridged list - the reference that I linked to find it then is now defunct.
Thanks for keeping the valuable FFR archive going, and for using it to keep the forum interesting.


Top
  
Quote
Re: Any Threadliners?
Post 10 Apr 2020, 09:13 • #24 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 02/27/16
Posts: 1573
Location: US-IL
As Pete stated noodle rodding is a great lakes phenomenon.A long soft rod usually with extra guides for light line for big fish in small streams.The rod acted like a shock absorber to protect the light line and the reach to help guide the bait.Usually spawn and sometimes worms.Steelhead and salmon run up onto some really skinny water.There are a couple creeks 5 miles from my house ,a good 15 miles from lake michigan that had salmonoid returns years ago.There are still some signs posted with a number to call if you catch or see any.I always assumed thread lining was using tiny line for bigger fish.We used to call free lining.Using a free swimming minnow nightcrawler or leech.We always used a khale hook and maybe 1 BB shot.Just feed the bait line and let it swim.Light line is a must and a soft rod to protect the line.


Top
  
Quote
Re: Any Threadliners?
Post 10 Apr 2020, 11:00 • #25 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 16286
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
I think you can call that an application, but it's not a regional technique - it's kinda worldwide as this thread demonstrates.
They developed the whole line of Colorado reels for the same use on a fly rod, and PNW'ers have been trotting steelhead just as long, while the word trotting as a technique has Brit origin.

Dave Whitlock was threadlining this way in the last century - that's where Joe Robinson got the idea. The two of them together relaxed this way between fly-fishing/casting classes. Joe percolated their experience into a book a dozen years ago.
https://www.billkiene.com/forums/showth ... ities-quot
good story on this forum link, but I believe it's post-dated - Joe was employed at Austin Angler from the end of the 70s, until it closed in the late '90s, and he moved to Sportsman's Finest.

borrowed this photo of Joe I found online

probably Lake Travis with that smallmouth


Last edited by bulldog1935 on 17 Apr 2020, 06:46, edited 1 time in total.

Top
  
Quote
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  

1, 2, 3, 4  Next New Topic Add Reply



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Google
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group