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Post 12 Sep 2022, 10:54 • #1 
Guide
Joined: 04/20/10
Posts: 112
Location: US California Tahoe Sierras
With all these new Fiberglass on the market . I have been wondering about the materials used other that just glass s glass / E glass ect .
Asking Questions When you are buying new glass products.
What is the scrim used is it glass or carbon fiber pre perg What mat are used ?
What is the modulus of the glass pre perg.
Tapers & wall thickness elongation of the material under load ?
What are we really paying for ? Color , Clarity of material , design & construction ? Myself am un - clear on these matters the this new age of glass Fly Rods .
And to close why are some blanks are 30 bucks others go to 300.00 bucks and everything in between what make this span of cost large .
Were I came from In the old school glass taper was no 1 Material was no 2 feruling spigot or tip over butt or ferules in the way old school glass. I am shure that members of the forum can weight in one or all of these concerns .
Randy Johnson at Retroglass


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Post 12 Sep 2022, 11:46 • #2 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19077
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
Randy,
I believe the difference is less the specific modulus of the MOC, rather, a blend of different fibers with a range in modulus (kind of like the older Lami Perigree blanks - even Graphite V began blending modulus because Graphite IV was so harsh).

What's really big now is helical-wrap cloth and tape, the goal being to get the needed strength in a lighter structure by using less total material.
This also goes with nano-resin, simply resin prepreg, again aiming to get the taper and strength result with the least possible resin and total mass.

While this image is Toray IM8, St. Croix uses this same construction approach in my Legend Glass spinning rod, and it's notably the lightest MM glass rod I've ever handled, lighter in hand than my MM Crowder IM6. (Showing the Abu rod because you can see the tape)
Image Image

The light weight and extreme range in tapers is notable in bait and spinning rods finesse to MH, but for fly rods, I don't have a reason to look past Fisher.
In salty fly, I began with Graphite III RPLX, then I backed up to Fisher and Japanese S-glass, and kept going back to venerable glass for my limestone creeks.


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Post 14 Sep 2022, 13:57 • #3 
Guide
Joined: 07/22/20
Posts: 175
Location: Ancient City, Florida
Always found it fascinating. I imagine the specific qualities of the prepreg, fabric and resins, engineering and hand rolled in US, China or NZ all relate to price.
The specific resins, layers, scrim added to the roll would all be part of the secret sauce that combines with the taper. Longitudinal strands for the bend and scrim to bind it all together. One piece cut down for tip into but vs multiple pieces for butt over tip

There are a number of videos that show the basic process. I would love to see a video or discussion of the generalities of adding different sandwiches of materials to different points in the blank. Added carbon to the butt, etc.


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Post 14 Sep 2022, 19:55 • #4 
Administrator
Joined: 01/10/06
Posts: 7811
Location: Holly Springs, NC
Retroglass wrote:
With all these new Fiberglass on the market. I have been wondering about the materials used other that just glass s glass / E glass. What is the scrim used is it glass or carbon fiber pre preg? What mat are used? What is the modulus of the glass pre preg?
The most popular new glass fiber is called Zentron (the link downloads a technical bulletin PDF file titled High Strength Glass Fibers. Zentron is produced by AGY, in South Carolina. In a nutshell, S2-glass is the same S-glass that has been on the market since the 70s, but with thinner fibers and more modern sizing/resin chemistry. However, much of the published technical information is vague. The woven cloths are claimed to be more unidirectional than in years past. More important for the rod designer, the woven cloth is thinner, allowing more flexibility on how the glass pattern is cut and wrapped on the mandrel. Details about fiber weaves are not published.

The bulk elastic modulus of S2-glass is 12.9 million lbs/square inch, just like the S-glass of old. This is roughly 25% greater than E-glass. The final modulus of the pre-preg is usually a secret. That value depends not only on the glass fiber, but also on how much of the pre-preg is fiber and how much is binder resin*. Zentron pre-preg is ~65-70% fiber (compared to 45-65% in classic glass). The net result is a substantial modulus boost of the cured composite (but still a pretty small boost compared to switching to any graphite fiber).

Retroglass wrote:
Tapers & wall thickness elongation of the material under load? What are we really paying for ? Color, clarity of material, design & construction? Why are some blanks 30 bucks, others go to 300.00 bucks, and everything in between?
What are we paying for? All of the above. Clear glass is readily accomplished, so rod makers either put pigment in the pre-preg or color coat the cured/sanded blanks. The wall thickness is easier to manipulate than in the past, so different tapers can be made. But why some blanks are available for so cheap, while others sell for nearly $300 is a bit of a mystery.


Tom

* The percentage of fiber in the pre-preg is called the fiber volume ratio. For round fibers, the maximum fiber volume ratio is about 70%. There will always be some space between the fibers due to the round shape.


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Post 15 Sep 2022, 10:16 • #5 
Guide
Joined: 04/20/10
Posts: 112
Location: US California Tahoe Sierras
Thanks Tom
For your information should be helpful to the members. The justification of the cost of these blanks may be a another topic for the forum.
It is not clear if everyone is using the same glass peg. Why the cost is across the board maybe to keep the cost higher for added profits & over head . Also with these newer blanks their is a limited track record .
This brings up with these new materials do the act the same way as classic glass pre perg or do these blanks become very similar to early Hexcel carbon pre pergs at 33mm modulus ?

Thanks again ,
Randy at Retroglass


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Post 15 Sep 2022, 12:08 • #6 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 04/20/07
Posts: 8920
Location: US-ME
Thanks for the q, Randy, which led to some great info from Tom. Not sure of the various technologies, but it's been clear to me for a long time that contemporary 'glass, by a combination of marketing and tweaks in technology, is designed to appeal to anglers coming from stiff graphite, many of those not recalling the feel of graphite before the "modulus" contests began in advertising and marketing, before the various "IM" ("improved" modulus, i.e. stiffer) and after the first great graphite rods from Fisher, Scott, and few others--all relatively "soft" compared to the touted graphite rods of just a few years later (let's say IM3), let alone today. I still recall the great early Fisher graphites--these popularized the brand in the northeast--and building a few for other guys in the late 1970s. But I also think 'glass is best fished for what it is, as in classic Fisher or Phillipson form, with lines, casting, and fishing techniques it suits. In the 80s, the last gasp efforts to market S-glass with its "higher modulus" to compete with the graphite didn't appeal at the time, although some good rods resulted. "Stiffer" glass isn't much more desirable today--to me--but makes perfect sense to try for anglers coming from IM6-plus graphite and looking for something different. I hope we can get Tom or a few others to fill in more technical detail.


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Post 15 Sep 2022, 18:46 • #7 
Guide
Joined: 07/22/20
Posts: 175
Location: Ancient City, Florida
Was hoping maybe Shane would chime in too. Of course maybe because I was looking at the 7-6” 8wt blanks ;)


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Post 15 Sep 2022, 19:55 • #8 
Administrator
Joined: 01/10/06
Posts: 7811
Location: Holly Springs, NC
Retroglass wrote:
It is not clear if everyone is using the same glass preg. Also with these newer blanks their is a limited track record.
I doubt everyone is using AGY's material, but the Zentron tradename is featured often (for instance, North Forks Composites, Swift's Epic fly rods, or the Zenglass listed on the Blue Halo website). The Redington Butter Stick rods are made from T-glass which is a proprietary S-glass like formulation from Japan. The Orvis Superfine rods are simply listed as 'S2-fiberglass', so we don't know where they purchased their pre-preg.

As far as the track record goes, Zentron is also used for military ballistic armor. I wouldn't expect it to be fragile. These aren't brand new materials, such as when fiberglass or graphite fiber first hit the market. They are the result of many gradual improvements - despite the breathless marketing.

Retroglass wrote:
This brings up with these new materials do they act the same way as classic glass pre preg or do these blanks become very similar to early Hexcel carbon pre pregs at 33mm modulus?
From what I've seen, the new E-glass rods tend toward lighter line/shorter rods than 60s/70s era E-glass. The new S-glass rods have a similar feel to the Lamiglas S-glass rods of the late 70s or the Sage S-glass rods of the early 80s. There really aren't many classic S-glass rods to use as comparisons. Again, the modern versions tend toward lighter line/shorter offerings. The earliest carbon materials were often built into extremely slender blanks, although the Shakespeare Graflite felt more like E-glass to me.


Tom


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Post 17 Sep 2022, 11:36 • #9 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 06/24/11
Posts: 1144
Location: Belgium
What's costly in composites is quality control all along the chain of custody for the materials. Often the materials are used in industries where all that has to be meticulously documented. For example, temperature and humidity should be controlled and logged. When it comes to building glass fishing rods this might not make much of a practical difference although theoretically it should yield a more consistent product.

Glass, epoxy, additives, consumables, aren't hugely expensive in themselves.


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Post 19 Oct 2022, 07:51 • #10 
Master Guide
Joined: 07/21/21
Posts: 447
Location: Florida
So many rabbit holes to go down … even in fiberglass composition. Yiu guys leave no stone unturned whether it is the type of fiberglass … reel weights … fluro vs mono leaders .. knots … amazing the information Ian’s knowledge on this site. Not T glass … when I got my Butter Stick version II I Saw that it was made with T glass but never followed up on the “so what” so thanks for the info.


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Post 20 Oct 2022, 08:55 • #11 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 11/30/10
Posts: 1847
Location: Michigan
I would love to chime in, but first I have limited knowledge of most of this and I can only provide info from my situation and info on what I actually know. I have some speculation but will keep most of that to myself.

I would start with this question. Why do Epic blanks cost more than Steffen blanks? I don't have this answer. Steffen blanks are made in the USA, and always have been vs. Epic made in Korea.

I recently have raised the price of the Steffen blanks a little just to cover the rising cost of every single thing it takes to make the blanks. That being said, the cost to purchase the minimum quantity prepeg in the specific weight and color for the Steffen fiberglass blanks is 15K... now again that is the minimum cost. For a small company such as mine, this is a pile of money. The material used is very specific and only made to be used for Steffen fiberglass fishing rods. I am lucky enough that Mark & Tim included hundreds of mandrels, mandrels are not that expensive but you need a large quantity of them.... more money for sure.

A good explanation of why a Trout Smiths or Graywolf fiberglass blank would cost less than a Steffen Blank. A couple simple reasons (1) The material I use in making the rods is readily available and used by enough makers that the minimum is much smaller. (2) These rods: action/feel/etc are based on the mandrel/taper design and the way the fabric is used vs. needing to use a specific proprietary material... therefor a much smaller investment.

I'll end with this... I remember way back in 07 or 08 buying blanks from CTS that where all fiberglass (before that, they had a graphite scrim). Custom, proprietary and awesome rod blanks - 50 bucks!


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