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Post 16 Jan 2014, 13:23 • #1 
Master Guide
Joined: 02/11/12
Posts: 716
Location: New Hampshire
You can imagine my surprise the other day when this Vince Cummings Ultimate I 6'8" popped up on Ebay as a Buy It Now for $270. It only took me a few seconds to bid and it arrived a few days later. It even had the original tube and sock. The seller said it was the original rod sock? Then to see the sellers name on the blank just made this an unbelievable find. How many one owner Vince rods are found these days?

My excitement turned to disappointment real quik as I noticed a few white spots or fractures in the blank. You can not feel them as you run your fingernail along the blank. I sent an email to the seller asking him what has happened as he in the original owner right? He told me it was left in the trunk of a car by a friend without the tube and was damaged. No mention of this in the auction description. He also said that it never bothered him or was even an issue to him and it still fished fine. He calls them surface scratches. Would like to get some thoughts on the damage as I have never seen this kind of stress, crack, fracture in any other rod. Maybe a spare tire was thrown on it? Who knows?

It was not easy but 3 days later I returned it as I just could not get past the damage. I hope not to regret it.

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Last edited by myfly on 16 Jan 2014, 14:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Post 16 Jan 2014, 16:25 • #2 
Master Guide
Joined: 02/11/12
Posts: 716
Location: New Hampshire
When you put your hand on either side of the stress area and wiggle a bit you can see the fiberglass flex. But again you can not feel the crack area at all. I have talked with a another rod maker/board member about my concerns and he can comment if he wants. I wonder if the rod can be fixed? Has another rod maker ever fixed a problem like this with unnoticeable results.

The rod was sold again for $300 two days ago.

Here is the link below to the auction that I won.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vince-Cummings-. .. true&rt=nc


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Post 16 Jan 2014, 16:28 • #3 
Administrator
Joined: 01/10/06
Posts: 7811
Location: Holly Springs, NC
Good move sending it back. Near as I can tell, that is impact damage.

The original auction did not disclose the damage. The repeat auction DID show photos of the 'scratches'. Calling that a scratch is not realistic, but eBay does not have a way to police 'minor' misrepresentation. I wouldn't want to even cast the rod like that. Despite the photos, the new buyer should send the rod back too. If the rod flexes at the damage, then it was misrepresented.

The rod can be fitted with a shunt on the inside to support the damaged area. The rod would probably feel just about the same. But the value would be reduced quite drastically.

Tom


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Post 17 Jan 2014, 19:03 • #4 
Master Guide
Joined: 02/11/12
Posts: 716
Location: New Hampshire
Tom, are you thinking maybe a fall or slipping on rocks then landing on the fly rod? Again the odd thing was I could not feel the crack or fracture at all running my finger along the rod. The word shunt I'm not familiar with do you mean like a hollow glass insert to support the stress?

Is it possible to epoxy then varnish to hide damage? Keep in mind I'm not a rod builder. Hoping to make sure no one here buys it later on down the road with hidden repairs.

Russ


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Post 17 Jan 2014, 19:22 • #5 
Guide
Joined: 08/24/13
Posts: 261
Location: US-WA
It looks more like a surface abraision to me probably just in the finish of the blank.


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Post 17 Jan 2014, 20:04 • #6 
Master Guide
Joined: 02/11/12
Posts: 716
Location: New Hampshire
This photo shows the other two stress marks below the stripping guide. The other photos above show the one after the stripping guide.

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Post 18 Jan 2014, 00:24 • #7 
Guide
Joined: 12/08/10
Posts: 193
Location: Warehouse H
I would have returned it too. It's damaged and will eventually break at the worst of those damaged spots IMHO.


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Post 18 Jan 2014, 07:23 • #8 
Guide
Joined: 11/28/11
Posts: 325
Location: US-MI
It woulda' broke my heart.


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Post 18 Jan 2014, 10:40 • #9 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 04/26/06
Posts: 3837
Location: Northeast Of Heaven
Hello
This is a sad state to see a rod in that is so highly regarded no doubt. :(
If the rod were of lesser value perhaps the damage wouldn't be as critical in terms of risk.
Let’s face it when you spend the money on a used rod your expectations are to be able to enjoy the rod without the worry that when casting to or playing the fish of a lifetime it may fail.

I'm certain the rod can be repaired however an invisible repair is unlikely given the nature of the damage, from what I have been told about the damage, the scratches/gouges are cylindrical they go all the way around the shaft in 3 places, I'm also told that at least one of the damaged areas when flexed you can feel the gouge separate.

That would indicate that the damage is not just superficial outer finish damage.

I have seen this type of damage in the past, when I encountered this problem it was as a result of the rod slipping out of the rollers on a rod turner, what happens is when the rod pops out of the supports the spring loaded roller metal arm comes in contact with the blank.

If it happens while you’re looking at the rod it's no problem you just readjust the supports and no damage occurs, however if the rod is on the turner unattended and say left to turn lights out, the metal roller supports will compromise the blank.
I have also seen this happen with poorly designed homemade rod support rollers.
Plastic casters are the worst because they have a parting line in the center of the roller formed when the caster was injection molded.

Naturally we have no way of really knowing how these cylindrical gouges were made, from years at the bench my observations are strictly an educated guess, I'm still learning new things so nothing would surprise me.

One of the most popular Cummings rod repairs usually includes flaking clear coat, the clear coat
Vince used did not stand the test of time in most cases, conservatively I'd say 50% of the ultimate's that find there way to my bench suffer from aged flaking clear coat.
From the pictures of this rod I see no clear coat present, what's stranger is there's no evidence
Of clear coat, this makes me wonder? if the damage might have occurred while the rod was being
Spun to remove flaking clear coat?

Of course without actually having the rod in hand it's impossible to make a accurate evaluation or repair action plan.

Sending the rod back was the safest bet, the rod was resold to another one of our crowd so the possibility that I may have the opportunity to repair the rod still exists? ;)

When these types of situations occur it is important to give our fellow fiberglass enthusiast here a heads up so our problems are not passed on to another member, in this case that's unfortunately exactly what has happened.

Tight lines and cylindrical loops
Andy M


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Post 18 Jan 2014, 15:40 • #10 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 03/16/08
Posts: 3540
Location: Upstate-NY
Andy - you fixed your Title Case problem! Bravo!

Tight lines and easy reading loops


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Post 18 Jan 2014, 19:03 • #11 
Administrator
Joined: 01/10/06
Posts: 7811
Location: Holly Springs, NC
myfly, Yes, by shunt I was referring to a piece of hollow fiberglass placed on the inside of the rod to support the damage. Maybe I should have used the phrase 'stent'. More descriptive. Perhaps TOO descriptive.

I thought the damage looked like the rod struck a sharp edge, leaving a fracture behind. I hadn't paid enough attention to realize the mark completely encircled the rod. Oops ... The latest photo shows the circular nature of the marks the best. I think Andy hit the mark the best - some sort of turning damage. Even if the marks are only superficial scratches, as Randy notes, no way that damage happened in a car trunk.

The following is speculation (and ranting) on my part. Perhaps the rod was in the process of a little 'rod grip refresh'. That reelseat looks oddly clean. Then something unpleasant happened. Far too many eBay rods have sanded grips and freshened threads. For what it is worth, I won't buy 'mint' rods anymore. I doubt most of them are real. I won't pay some fool for sanding a grip they should have left alone. Don't feed the forgers. Don't overpay for 'condition'. Unless the rod is in the original packaging, it's just a fishing rod. That includes, Cummings, Peak, Phillipson, Winston, Scott, GlasTech, Fenwick - all of them.

Whatever the reason, whoever bought it last, send the Ultimate back. Those three scratches/abrasions/fractures hacked most of the value from the rod. It's not worth the sale price. Without a serious physical by someone like Andy, that rod is not ready for the water. If the rod has a soft spot at the first damage mark, it needs repair.

Tom


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Post 19 Jan 2014, 11:48 • #12 
Master Guide
Joined: 02/11/12
Posts: 716
Location: New Hampshire
pmagas wrote:
It woulda' broke my heart.

It sure did Pete. It will take a while to get over that one.

Thanks Tom and Andy for making me feel a bit better. Andy special thanks for taking the time to answer my questions on the phone.

I'm sure we will see that Cummings fly rod again soon.

Russ


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Post 19 Jan 2014, 13:19 • #13 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 04/26/06
Posts: 3837
Location: Northeast Of Heaven
Hello
No worries I'm always willing to help.
Yes I got word this morning the rod is headed in my direction for some T.L.C.
Hopefully the issues are not beyond my skill level?
Tight lines And headed My Way loops.
Andy M


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Post 03 Feb 2021, 09:08 • #14 
Sport
Joined: 11/13/20
Posts: 33
Location: Southern VT
Whatever happened to the Cummings?!! Sorry I know it’s an old thread.

A related blank (herters rfsc#) is listed in Johnson. Are the blanks identical to the 7090 xxl? Does anyone have experience with the differences/similarities in their action due to the different builds? I have a couple xxls and wonder if it’s worth looking for a rfsc.


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Post 03 Feb 2021, 18:31 • #15 
Administrator
Joined: 01/10/06
Posts: 7811
Location: Holly Springs, NC
Unless the person that sent the damaged Cummings rod to Andy authorized him to discuss it on the forum, I don't expect we will hear anything further about it.

Yes, St. Croix made rod blanks for Herters. That doesn't mean the Herters RFSC rod blank was produced by St Croix. Lots of companies made gear for Herters. Without the Herters production records, we can't know for sure.

The St. Croix 7090 series fly rods are good stuff. I wouldn't overlook them by searching for a Herters rod that you might not find.


Tom


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Post 03 Feb 2021, 19:40 • #16 
Sport
Joined: 11/13/20
Posts: 33
Location: Southern VT
Point well taken about the Vince Cummings, didn’t mean to pry. Also thanks for the very sound advice with the 7090’s. They really are nice rods. Mostly just curious about the herters and if there is a pronounced difference in action from the 7090. Thanks for the response to this old thread.


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Post 04 Feb 2021, 02:49 • #17 
Master Guide
Joined: 02/23/10
Posts: 784
Location: SF Bay Area
Actually, we do know St Croix made the RFSC. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11698&hilit=rfsc

The give away is the SC. Nice rod worth owning, it's my favorite bluegill rod.


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