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Post 28 Feb 2012, 15:45 • #26 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 02/06/07
Posts: 1437
Location: US-VT
Why is a $500 graphite rod "nuts" and a $500 glass rod not nuts? Any quality glass rod is going to cost as much as a quality graphite rod. The days where one can find good glass at a far lower cost are over. Every glass rod that I would be interested in purchasing is $500 - $1000 new. Modern or vintage.


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Post 28 Feb 2012, 15:53 • #27 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19076
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
Having paid $460 for a new Fisher Sterling combo finished out to my specs in 1992, you're not going to hear me calling it nuts. (same as off-the-shelf price then, btw)
What I do think is nuts is paying $700 for an off-the-shelf graphite rod, rather than putting that amount into a rod that was custom made to my specifications.


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Post 28 Feb 2012, 20:57 • #28 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 11/30/11
Posts: 1231
Location: Fresno, CA
bulldog1935 wrote:
What I do think is nuts is paying $700 for an off-the-shelf graphite rod, rather than putting that amount into a rod that was custom made to my specifications.

That's a very good point. If I'm going spend that kind of money I certainly want something with more of a bespoke quality then something anyone can just go buy off the shelf. I think theres a better chance that you'll keep that rod as a heirloom or keep it long term and get much more from it then a high end off the shelf carbon copy rod(no pun intended).


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Post 29 Feb 2012, 09:06 • #29 
Master Guide
Joined: 02/26/08
Posts: 981
Location: SW, Michigan
I love my graphite fly rods and definitely don't think fly rod manufacturers are evil, they are businesses though. The ones that survive are extremely good at what they do.


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Post 29 Feb 2012, 09:51 • #30 
Sport
Joined: 01/28/09
Posts: 26
Location: Cadyville, N.Y.
It looks like this post is getting a bit contentious so I think I'll back out, but first let me explain.
Ron is correct and graghite can now run to $700+, and I was thinking of the "off the shelf" rod. Once again I think thats a bit much for a rod that may not be as good as the early graphites. If I'm going to spend that much or more it will be for bamboo.
As to a "custom" rod, if I need one, I'll make it myself.
Bruce


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Post 29 Feb 2012, 18:13 • #31 
Master Guide
Joined: 02/04/12
Posts: 705
Location: SE Pa
Quote:
In order to obtain a well designed and decently, (hardly even 'good') crafted rod, you must be willing to shell out $600

To each their own, that's why there are so many choices.

I've been fishing for over 50 years, and feel there are a lot of off the shelf $100 rods that would have totally stunned the industry 30-40 years ago. I remember buying a Wonderrod back in the mid 70's and I had to go thru an entire rack of them to find one that didn't have a manufacturing issue or shelf damage - minor as they might have been.

Hey it's just me & what do I know. .. but my thinking is that there's a lot of Madison Ave fostered bias and slick marketing foolery around; I've never owned a rod that was over $200, and I'm as happy as a lark with what I fish with.

But then again, I guess I'm just not that discerning. ... after all, I still use my Pop's Ocean City 35 reel on small streams and think a 76 or 77 is just great for larger waters.


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Post 17 Mar 2012, 04:29 • #32 
Master Guide
Joined: 04/01/11
Posts: 466
Location: US-UT
Graphite throws a long line well but does it do it with the feel of the old stuff? I don't think so or we all would be on Graphiteflyrodders.com. Yeah, there are those rare advantages to graphite but only if flinging super long lines with speed is your cup of tea. I for one tend to cherish my time on the water and want to slow down from the hectic pace of the world. I enjoy the relaxed tempo of casting a deep flexing glass rod and a fish is merely a bonus on many days.

I don't know why graphite replaced the beauty of FG, but I am glad I got out of that arena, as the glass I use is all part of the soul restoring tempo of the places I enjoy the most.


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Post 18 Mar 2012, 19:54 • #33 
Master Guide
Joined: 12/29/11
Posts: 510
Location: US-CA
I love bamboo and glass rods and have no quarrel with anyone who prefers them over graphite, but to say graphite is not as good a fishing rod as glass (or bamboo) just doesn't ring true to me at all. Fast rods and tighter loops aren't just for distance, but are also keys to accuracy, which is all important for fishing. Consider tournament casters in the Dry Fly Accuracy event, where the targets are 50' or less. They don't care what material they use, it's only the accuracy of the rod that matters in competition. Virtually all of them use graphite rods, some faster than others. And in the distance events of course, there is absolutely no question about graphite's superiority. Though the weight of the rod isn't a consideration in tournament casting, graphite has the advantage over glass in that department as well.

That leaves casting feel and fish playing ability, both of which some think favor glass or bamboo. I think the feel in casting is a subjective preference and enjoy the feel of both smooth slower rods as well as fast crisp ones. Others who prefer the feel of glass will get no argument from me. As to fish playing ability, some think glass is softer and more protective of light tippets, and that seems reasonable. I have no problems with 6X or 7X with graphite trout rods and don't think that's very unusual. In larger rods for bigger fish, my experience is that there is no fish playing advantage in glass over graphite, except if you prefer the full-bending feel and appearance of glass.

With maybe a few exceptions, all of the best anglers and fishing professionals I know, who could use any rod they choose, use graphite. To say that graphite is the overwhelming market favorite among fly anglers because of marketing is, in my opinion, to ignore the great advantages of graphite and to assume that everyone (except we on this board, of course) is so gullible that marketers can persuade them to pay more money for inferior rods. I love my glass rods and fish my Winston and L. Kenney glass rods with great pleasure, but to say graphites don't deserve to be the overwhelming favorite in the market is, to put it gently, somewhat unrealistic. Graphite has replaced glass for all practical purposes and this board is a small enclave in a much larger fly fishing landscape.


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Post 18 Mar 2012, 21:23 • #34 
Master Guide
Joined: 04/27/09
Posts: 573
Location: US-SD
As to whether everyone is so gullible that advertisers can persuade them to buy inferior products instead of good ones I have a two word answer: Lite Beer.


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Post 18 Mar 2012, 23:18 • #35 
Master Guide
Joined: 05/08/06
Posts: 796
Location: RenoNV/FranklinWV
16 PMD - You said it all in that one. My Tom Morgan Favorites/Wintons/Scott G's/Sage's/ Orvis's/Hardy Zentih's etc ... are spectacular fishing rods rivaling any rod ever made out of any material.
My Kenney's/Wojnicki's/Winston's/Takada etc ... are spectacular fishing rods rivaling any rod made out of any material.
My bamboo's are spectacular fishing rods rivaling any rod made out of any material.

I would, in the end give graphite the advantage for efficiency. They are not all fast as hell broomsticks,
and in the end the graphites are deadly accurate.

What a great selection of materials/makers and tapers available to all of us. I certainly see no reason to dis one material over the other.

Heck, I still prefer an icy cold longneck Budweiser after a hot day in the outdoors.


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Post 18 Mar 2012, 23:48 • #36 
Master Guide
Joined: 04/01/11
Posts: 466
Location: US-UT
rsagebrush wrote:

Heck, I still prefer an icy cold longneck Budweiser after a hot day in the outdoors.

Not a Bud Lite? :hat


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Post 18 Mar 2012, 23:51 • #37 
Master Guide
Joined: 05/08/06
Posts: 796
Location: RenoNV/FranklinWV
Not as filling


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Post 19 Mar 2012, 07:22 • #38 
Administrator
Joined: 07/17/06
Posts: 5599
Location: South Carolina
cofisher wrote:
I think there is some merit to all the above remarks. I've got a new one to add. Tom and Cameron. Add to that the fact that new reels were thrown over for old clicker reels thanks to Bulldog and Middlemac and you see before you a man who is glass rod and clicker poor.

Howard ... glad you've done your part to keep the economy rolling along. HA ...

There are a lot of interesting points in this thread. I agree that marketing has played a huge part in graphite over fiberglass and even if they are more efficient it doesn't mean that they are as fun to put a bend in on a fish. As Brother Yuhina said, and I'll paraphrase, that the fun is over once a fish is hooked on graphite. I prefer glass even if it doesn't always make sense.


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Post 19 Mar 2012, 08:21 • #39 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 12/03/07
Posts: 1152
Location: Shenandoah Valley of Virginia
I prefer glass even if it doesn't always make sense (Cameron)

I like that Cameron. Same thing fishing with bamboo. Sometimes it's just fun to fish the history, charm, and feel of a rod. Bamboo to me is clunkier (in the longer lengths). It's like driving a beat up old pickup truck. It's just a gas to drive around in.

I think 16PMD is right on target. Graphite is still pretty hard to beat. My 9 foot vintage Scott G rods can be fished nearly everywhere, anytime. Last summer my go to rod was either my 9' 3wt or my 9 foot 6wt. But when it comes to fishing the mountain streams for brook trout, I still think glass is best.


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Post 20 Mar 2012, 01:55 • #40 
Master Guide
Joined: 02/23/10
Posts: 784
Location: SF Bay Area
Broken down by the replies we have so far.

1) Graphite is lighter
2) More accurate
3) Can cast further
4) Makes a better longer rod
5) Cheaper/Easier to make
6) Marketing

Kind of makes you wonder what the heck we are all doing fishing with this obsolete material. Not

Personally, graphite has become my last choice material for when glass won't get the job done. I mainly fish for trout, and in the past three years I've only needed to use a graphite rod once. That was on a large lake in 30+ mph winds, and even then I caught a fish on glass first just to know that I could (also to feel a large Pyramid lake Cut. on fiberglass :hat ).

Mostly I prefer using it because I enjoy the casting and fish fighting qualities of fiberglass but I think there are some technical advantages.

Short rods: I'm pretty sure most would agree that it's easier to find a great taper in the 7' and under category. Also, whatever superior qualities graphite has becomes negligible for the type of fishing you are doing with a rod of that length.

Tippet protection: Of course it will depend on the taper but glass lends itself to this ability better than any of the other materials. You can land a large fish with light tippet on graphite but it will take greater concentration and perhaps a bit more luck. The softer nature and flex of glass protects the tippet better, and allows the fisherman a little more reaction time when countering a fishes runs and lunges.

Heavier line-weight versatility: (IMO) This is the quality that makes fiberglass the best candidate if you could only own one freshwater rod in any material. Fiberglass allows you to use a heavier weight line than graphite would for the same conditions. For instance, in trout fishing you could use a 6-7 weight rod without giving up much delicacy, and be able to enjoy the fight of whatever size fish you were catching. Add to that all the advantages of a heavier line, e.g., better in wind, ability to cast larger/heavier flies, still able to cast smaller flies (while having the needed tippet protection), distance, better able to control large fish, and did I mention fun with fish of all sizes?


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Post 26 Mar 2012, 09:03 • #41 
Master Guide
Joined: 09/29/08
Posts: 435
Location: US-NJ
Sure the high end graphite rods go $700+, but there are also plenty of graphite "beginner" rods in the $100 to $300 range that are quite nice. I started fly fishing in the 60's and there were some real dogs out there if you weren't careful. I've taught various groups with $100 starter outfits and they are all decent and would have been something we lusted after 40 years ago. I think graphite has dominated by allowing decent low/mid end rods more than providing a real fast high end stick. The low end outfits are generally a more medium-fast action that is fairly forgiving and I think the major rod companies build nice starter rods so people learn to fly fish fairly quickly and easily and become customers for the high priced end.

BTW, I always get a kick out of the beginner rod advertising. More forgiving, protects tippet better, etc - don't we all want that.


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Post 26 Mar 2012, 10:24 • #42 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19076
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
Holdover wrote:
Broken down by the replies we have so far.

1) Graphite is lighter
2) More accurate
3) Can cast further
4) Makes a better longer rod
5) Cheaper/Easier to make
6) Marketing

Kind of makes you wonder what the heck we are all doing fishing with this obsolete material. Not

broad generalizations.

I will say that when I bought my first Fisher, I dubbed it the Magic Wand, because I could put a popper exactly against a cut bank at 50-60'. If you were 2 inches from the bank, you got the little bluegill - if you were under an inch from the bank, you caught the big bluegill.
I was used to fishing Orvis glass and Sage and Powell (IM6) graphite.
It's not the material that made the Fisher accurate, it's the specific progressive taper, and I believe many of the "great" graphite rods put forward on several thread had blanks made by Fisher.


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Post 26 Mar 2012, 12:05 • #43 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 11/30/11
Posts: 1231
Location: Fresno, CA
maybe it is a lot simpler then all this, perhaps its just "newer means better" ...


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Post 26 Mar 2012, 14:23 • #44 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 06/11/05
Posts: 1008
Location: US-NY
I think all of technical reasons presented, whether they are valid or not, have very little weight in comparison with the marketing. As I have probably said before, fishing marketeers are always trying to sell tackle to people that already own good tackle. When graphite was introduced, they discovered an opportunity to sell graphite rods to people that previously fished with bamboo. The graphite rods sold for less money, but probably had a much higher profit margin than the labor-intensive bamboo rods. Once it became apparent that selling graphite was more profitable than selling anything else, that's what they pushed. Whenever you opened a fly fishing mag and saw a FF celebrity, he or she was probably holding a graphite rod. The implication to anyone relatively new to the sport was that this was now the material of choice.

The replacement of fiberglass with graphite just evolved from that. Once graphite became tagged as the desirable material, any low end rod that could somehow get the word graphite onto its label would sell better.

This is all just my opinion of course. Carry on. :)


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Post 26 Mar 2012, 15:08 • #45 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19076
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
that is exactly right - put it in the hands of a "personality" and ask them what do you think?
It's lighter, faster and farther.
Then keep doing that over and over with the same results.


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Post 26 Mar 2012, 16:09 • #46 
Master Guide
Joined: 12/29/11
Posts: 510
Location: US-CA
gaddis wrote:
I think all of technical reasons presented, whether they are valid or not, have very little weight in comparison with the marketing. As I have probably said before, fishing marketeers are always trying to sell tackle to people that already own good tackle

I guess that's why glass replaced bamboo as the rod material of choice! ;)


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Post 27 Mar 2012, 20:55 • #47 
FFR Founder
Joined: 06/07/05
Posts: 792
Location: US-MA
Graphite replaced fiberglass because that's what humans do. It's why we went to the moon and why guys with perfectly great lives dream of doing something else instead. We don't stand still much as a species. Why are there Rainbow trout in New England and black bass in Japan? It ain't about being better - it's about being human.


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Post 28 Mar 2012, 07:44 • #48 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 12/05/06
Posts: 2086
Location: US-PA
Unfortunately I am old enough to remember when graphite was NEW. It was when I saw my first graphite rod, an HMG that glistened in the "tackle shop" I frequented. This was in my pre-fly fishing days. The hype on graphite from the sales guys and in the magazines of the time was unbelievable and I'm talking spinning gear! I can only imagine what it was like for the fly guys; guys who may have actually given a crap about a few ounces. This was NASA stuff folks! Beyond any hype I have seen since, it was bigger than boron, 10 foot rods, Tenkara or spey casting all rolled into one WITHOUT the Net to fuel the fire.

A few weeks later I actually saw my first graphite ultralight pole in use by another guy and I was chartreuse with envy but unfortunately way short of disposable cash as a punk kid. But the hype worked, a graphite rod was DEFINITELY in my cross-hairs. As fate would have it, my first fly rod was soon to follow and it was graphite when glass still ruled my local streams. That hype stuck with me until I discovered bamboo shortly after when I could afford it. Fortunately the bamboo bug led me to glass VERY recently.

So the moral of my story is, despite all of the valid reasons besides hype & marketing, the power of NEW is beyond belief. If you are old enough to remember those days you will know what I mean.


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Post 28 Mar 2012, 08:28 • #49 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 08/14/06
Posts: 1227
Location: Panther City, Texas
I read somewhere that the sole objective of Madison Avenue is to entice people into making irrational choices. The power of advertising can be seen in the number of cigarettes sold each day or the number of 1500 calorie lunches sold or perhaps even in the number of $800 fly rods sold. Few are immune to marketing's ability to make people crave what they don't need or even what may eventually kill them.


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Post 28 Mar 2012, 08:53 • #50 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 12/05/06
Posts: 2086
Location: US-PA
I'll drink to that! ;)


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