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Post 16 Jan 2019, 06:17 • #76 
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There ya go. I like the word pendular better than parabolic though.


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Post 16 Jan 2019, 08:02 • #77 
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CrustyBugger wrote:
By the way, Trev. I think McClane’s explanation that equates a progressive rod to a parabolic is very confusing and not accurate to how we consider tapers and actions today. I think he is comingling a butt action with a parabolic action which are actually different things. These days, I’d say that a progressive rod could be described as tip action, mid action or butt action (fast, med, slow) but not a parabolic action. The wet fly taper you asked about is a slow, butt action rod with consequential slow recovery but doesn’t cast at all like a parabolic action.
I read McClane a long, long time ago, and decided then his description was gobbledygook.
More new words doesn't simplify the communication - always abused in fly rod marketing (even new glass rods), and we're still talking about two opposite ends of the taper spectrum.

Where it gets confusing is long rod, short rod, fast rod, slow rod, something blended in between - that's where people begin to disagree about what's what.
Thin tip/ thick butt Progressive.xXxxxXX......X...x....X.......X.x.....X......x.X....xxx.....X.......x.......X.....xXXX.....Para Thin butt/ thick tip
throw in different lengths, different line weights, different load rates, actions, MOCs, both from each end and every point in between.

As far as casting goes, every rod is benefited by following the taper and loading with haul, but a para is most sensitive and may not work with aggressive timing leading the rod taper.

giogio wrote:
Always take the verbiage with a grain of salt: The top of the line Pezon Michel cane rods are the "PPP" series which stands for "Puissance Pendulaire Progressive" translatable as "Progressive Pendular Power". The rods are actually parabolic!
JoJo's in a place to see many more long fast paras than the rest of us. Most of the paras we see here are small niche trout rods, and blended taper to give them friendly tips.


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Post 16 Jan 2019, 08:02 • #78 
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What Crusty said was spot on. Maybe a visual will help. These are stess curves in cane, the higher the line goes the softer more flexible it is in that area. These are just an example of 4 types of rods and there are thousands of ways to get there. Except for an extreme para, fast action, or straight line progressive every other rod out there is a mix and will feel different to different casters do to their stroke.

"Duff" will cast my Semi- Para 20-30' and remark on how delicate the tip is and how gentle it lands. "Gearboy" will pick it up and put 50' of line out and say this has got nice power I like the way the butt works. Same rod cast by two friends. I have seen it happen and both are great casters.

First is a very fast taper. I can say I have not seen many bamboo built quite this fast with that soft of tip.
Image

Next is a Payne Para and once again this is an extreme para. Stiff tip and mid.
Image

Next is a progressive, this is not a straight taper but close enough.
Image

And last is a semi para taper which is one of mine.
Image


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Post 16 Jan 2019, 08:11 • #79 
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corlay wrote:
I dont think “parametric” was ever meant to equate to “parabolic”.
The similarity of both beginning with “para” causes confusion.

“parametric” is a marketing term to sell fiberglass rod tapers that were derived from mathematics to promote “even bending”

To me, parametrics are the Garrisons of fiberglass material.


I think you're spot on Corey. And quoting Vic Johnson in his book on FFR:

Computers were used by Berkley to design the Para/Metric's curved taper so that as the rod bent there was equal stress at every point along the length of the rod. Equal stresses eliminated the kickback problem so common in most rods and allowed casting characteristics that were identical regardless of the length and weight of the rod.


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Post 16 Jan 2019, 08:37 • #80 
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gearboy wrote:
corlay wrote:
I think you're spot on Corey. And quoting Vic Johnson in his book on FFR:

Computers were used by Berkley to design the Para/Metric's curved taper so that as the rod bent there was equal stress at every point along the length of the rod. Equal stresses eliminated the kickback problem so common in most rods and allowed casting characteristics that were identical regardless of the length and weight of the rod.


Thank you Jay.
it's good to know my recollections and memory didn't fail me. lol


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Post 16 Jan 2019, 08:46 • #81 
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Thanks for getting this discussion recentered with descriptions that try to define the term for fly rods. The constant in such discussions from the time when it made a marketing/mechanical transition from bamboo to tubular composites is that no one agrees. Believe it or not, there was a time when the math was not over my head and I studied it all out. I still have a book with a good chapter on it as to fly rod design, but I don't want to muddle my brain anymore by looking at it.

My own conclusion, though, was similar to Carlz's. Well, I still find it a interesting to study technical/logical arguments on the topic, but long ago I concluded that it isn't worth disputing about.

I guarantee--and if this directs a dispute to me, I can take it--that every well reasoned question and description above puts far more thought into it than Charlie Ritz did when he dreamed up/popularized the term.

Parabolic has long been more of a marketing term than a technical term, so the best we can have is any one maker describing the action of that maker's parabolic "models."

A strict definition for fishing rods has never been agreed upon and never will, or else the Eagle Claw 8 1/2' 'glass model I looked at yestereday would not say "parabolic" on it. It wasn't a bad 'glass utility rod, especially for less than $30.

Reviewing the argument since the term became rampant, from that time forward, few agreed on whether it applied to the taper itself, static flex, flex curve, and so on. Charlie Ritz had no idea other than the more generic stiff mid, softening point near the grip. He knew it made good magazine and advertising copy.

That's partly because "taper" doesn't translate in analog dimensions from bamboo to a tubular composite, whose flex is determined by wall thickness and diameter, not to mention materials with different stiffness and load-bearing properties.

To exaggerate the point just a bit, a section of a 'glass blank, without an intricate layup impractical for production(or strategic sanding or placement of sleeves, also labor intensive), can't be made to increase in stiffness, and then soften significantly again. To do this would mean increasing its I.D gradually--the norm in rods whose stiffness increases tip to butt, and then to decrease its I.D. Try to slip that one off a mandrel, which would be thicker at each end then some point between where the "softer" butt begins.

Parabolic rods never interested me to use since I don't fish where their casting nuances would seem advantageous. I never saw a pic of Arnie Gingrich or Charlie Ritz fishing where they might be either. Yet I get from the excellent casting descriptions above that they could be a lot of fun to use. Still, I like a rod to tell me when it is reaching its limits, and I'm not sure paras do that as well because of the softer section down into the grip.

Probably, thinking of AJ McClane's description, a great hobnobber and angler like Ritz, we could do better with fiberglass starting with several good progressive action--Fisher--blanks, lets say 8'. We will lay down pairs of butt sections and cut them, let's say at 10", another pair at 12.5", and another at 15". Now we have joints/sectioins that will spigot ferrule nicely when assembled backwards. The short cut off section can be turned around(thus softening into the grip and sipgoted, or it can be spigoted to the butt of yet another uncut butt section, easy since the I.D.s match and getting us a longer parabolic rod.

That's right. I just completely ruined several progressive action blanks, but by golly, I have a rod that is parabolic as Charile Ritz's bank account. I think I won't try it.

Hat's off to a builder and caster who can make a distinct taper/action of this type and get three or four guys to try it and agree--even though they may not agree with three or four others trying another maker's "para."

If I ever finish up the one Fisher blank I still have, maybe I'll write "pendular progressive" on it.

Oh, forgot, "wet fly" action: C-shaped relatively uniform bend, thus "slow." Naturally casts an open loop so as to reduce tangling of a gang of wet flies. Absorbs shock of hard strikes to swung wet flies.


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Post 16 Jan 2019, 08:47 • #82 
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Ok,now I am really confused gearboy if Berkley's design was to have the rod bend equal stress the entire length of the rod than to me it would look like the second picture above.I feel I have 2 rods that fit that graph my 6'3 parametric ,a 6' 2/3 Steffen and a 70 P I use to have.Duff does that 70p feel somewhat Para to you?........Aurelio


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Post 16 Jan 2019, 09:14 • #83 
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Have been following this with furrowed brow. It appears to me that there is no "industry standard" or commonly accepted definition, or consensus on what exactly a "parabolic" rod is. A term pretty loosely used?

Labelling a fly rod as "parabolic" or anything else for that matter, to me, is unimportant. I know what I like, when I try it. I think cabin fever is setting in :) and we all need to go fishing.


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Post 16 Jan 2019, 10:14 • #84 
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aurelio corso wrote:
Ok,now I am really confused gearboy if Berkley's design was to have the rod bend equal stress the entire length of the rod than to me it would look like the second picture above.I feel I have 2 rods that fit that graph my 6'3 parametric ,a 6' 2/3 Steffen and a 70 P I use to have.Duff does that 70p feel somewhat Para to you?........Aurelio

can't answer 70P, but the Berkley description esp on 6'3" pretty much follows what giogio and I have been using that tip loading follows butt and tip loading still adds to the cast with long line.
Bob's load curve examples are very nice.
There used to be an unabridged cane database online, but the site has crashed.

whrlpool, to really confuse you, Rob S. likes to take venerable glass blanks and shorten each end to turn them into paras.


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Post 16 Jan 2019, 11:00 • #85 
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BobHa, are those measured stress curves at ~full load, or calculated?
I would have expected a smoother curve with out the kinks.


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Post 16 Jan 2019, 11:20 • #86 
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Aurelio, Chris calls the 75p parabolic and the 64p and 70p semi-parabolic. I feel my 70p is definitely a semi-para taper in that it has a relatively soft tip and can cast close in but has the uncanny ability to make casts longer than it should at that length. I attribute this to the para profile of its butt and mid. It's a little wonder. I have had a Wojnicki 217P4, a true parabolic, and could never get to like it because at approximately 7'1" it to me was a small stream rod which should cast short. It did not which I attribute to the firm tip.

Even Ernest Schwiebert had some confusing things to say about the Berkley Para/Metrics. In Trout Tackle Two he basically says that Berkley is experimenting with parabolic fiberglass actions with their Parametric series. FWIW, he spelled Berkley wrong in the book.

Hey whrlpool - Fishers suck and Charles Ritz is a god! Juuuuust kidding! :)


Last edited by Duff on 16 Jan 2019, 12:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Post 16 Jan 2019, 11:25 • #87 
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Trev wrote:
BobHa, are those measured stress curves at ~full load, or calculated?
I would have expected a smoother curve with out the kinks.

answering out of turn, it's the grass in grass - nodes, imperfections affecting the individual measurements the curves were plotted from.
If you measured a sampling of rods, the curves would smooth out.


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Post 16 Jan 2019, 11:36 • #88 
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Trev, I can’t speak for BobHa’s graphs but those kind of curves are usually graphs of calculations at positions on the blank. The calculation is then graphed as a point against their respective positions. The points are usually connected with straight lines. The more points that are measured and calculated, the smoother the curve. Sometimes you will also see curves that are best fit curves that are calculated to give a smoother curve. Its not really necessary though. There is plenty of information there to see what’s going on with those tapers. The curves are also good enough to tell a designer if he needs to make a correction.


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Post 16 Jan 2019, 11:54 • #89 
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The top three are probably rated at 40' of line out. The last one which is mine is rated at 30' of 4wt line out the tip. The middle two are classic tapers which where probably measured over varnish plus had some error which would lead to some of the Kinks. That said kinks can be good in bamboo. Those ones you see at 25" and 60" are there for a reason. The 25" helps with loop control and the 60" let's it hinge into the butt quickly. You would see kinks at the ferrules in a tubular rod if a means for an accurate stress curve was available.

Ps. The stress curves are just where the rod is most flexible per given static load. If you hang weight on the tip that is not the curve you will see but looking at those curves for the fast action you would see a lot of tip defection with little butt deflection and looking at the para curve above you would see little tip but a lot of butt deflection. After you cast many rods and look at their strees curve or build and tweak many by their curve. You can have a pretty good guess how a rod will feel in hand.
Bob


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Post 16 Jan 2019, 12:56 • #90 
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With a large wet or small streamer which is going to roll cast easier- parametric, parabolic or progressive? and which will roll cast farther?


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Post 16 Jan 2019, 14:40 • #91 
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The longest one


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Post 16 Jan 2019, 21:04 • #92 
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How many Parametric Models are out there? I have yet to see anything three piece on ebay


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Post 16 Jan 2019, 23:53 • #93 
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I’ve owned a lot of 8’ 6wt 3pc and 2pc Berkley Parametric rods over the years. I buy them whenever I see them on ebay and give them to local kids.


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Post 17 Jan 2019, 06:37 • #94 
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Jason W wrote:
How many Parametric Models are out there? I have yet to see anything three piece on ebay

There are a few of them out there. Almost bought and 8'er once, from Allistair on Clark's board. Don't remember why I didn't, but it was almost certainly buying a different 8' from somewhere else.

Trev, the best roll-casting rods have quick mids. I can tell you a 6' Phillipson out-roll-casts any other 6' rod i've ever fished, and everybody should have either a 6'6" or 7' Phillipson. The short version of the Fisher Combo, 6'9" is also a great roll-caster. The 6'3" Para/metric is a very good roll-caster, so I can only guess the longer para/metrics are pretty good roll-casters, as well.


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Post 17 Jan 2019, 07:46 • #95 
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Jason, I assume you are asking about the number of models of the Para/Metric. The Johnson book, Fiberglass Fly Rods, states that the first P40 came in 8' and 8'6" in 1967. They expanded the line in 1968 to five rods from 6'3" to 9'3" including a 3-piece 6'3" PD40. The Curt Gowdy Para/Metric Signature series began in 1972 in two-piece and included these models: ( I believe this series was made in Taiwan.)

PG40 6'3" #6
PG40 7'0" #6
PG40 7'6" #6/7
PG40 8'0" #6/7
PG40 8'6" #7
PG40 9'3" #9


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Post 17 Jan 2019, 11:36 • #96 
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Of the 8'6" ones, the Gowdy ones are much heavier than the non-Gowdy Parametrics. I got rid of mine pretty fast. Also, the Gowdy rods are NOT U.S. made rods(Taiwan), which was another reason to me not to have one.


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Post 17 Jan 2019, 11:43 • #97 
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Is the "40" significant, are all the "40" rods parametric or is the "40" just show it's Berkley?
It would seem that using the same mandrels and blanks for different finishes/price levels would be economic.


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Post 17 Jan 2019, 11:59 • #98 
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Let's back up.....the Gowdy rods are NOT all made overseas, all I know are made in USA, though they may have done so later on, personally I have never seen an overseas Gowdy.
Gowdy rods were just Parametrics with a nice paint job.
Parametrics became made overseas at some point, and in general were not as smooth or light as the US made rods. Most were not nice rods, though I cast a 8.5 overseas 8wt once that was smooth and powerful.
Parametric came in a 3pc with the 6'3", 8ft, and 8.5ft, maybe more.

PM's came in PG (Parametric Gowdy) PS (Standard) PD (Deluxe) and PC (Custom), there may be more designations, I can't recall.


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Post 17 Jan 2019, 14:41 • #99 
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All the PG40s I’ve handled were made in the USA.


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Post 17 Jan 2019, 17:13 • #100 
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Image posted by quashnet on Classic Fly Rod Forum of Bob Summers casting a Young Para15 rod:

Image

Really illustrates the "hinge" in the butt section of a para taper, and how much more the rod flexes at that point than at the mid and (sometimes) tip.


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