It is currently 29 Mar 2024, 04:20


Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next New Topic Add Reply
Author Message
Post 05 Dec 2009, 11:37 • #26 
Master Guide
Joined: 09/05/09
Posts: 481
Location: liverpool NY
I'm very familiar with the terminology , and recognizing the various actions. BUT when I hear this rod is a parabolic action I run the other way thinking oh crap! another flabby rod!


Top
  
Quote
Post 05 Dec 2009, 23:58 • #27 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 04/20/07
Posts: 8920
Location: US-ME
A lot of rod "action" terminology is more marketing than mathematics, and--thank God--it's not governed by a set of regulatory rules, making it much easier for people like Charles Ritz to hoodwink others, which is fine with me, too. Check this out, though, to see how the idea of a parabola transforms to rod flex, as it does make some sense: http://www.mathwarehouse.com/geometry/parabola/
As to fast, medium, and slow, this is a simple concept made far more complicated that it needs to be. First, use the constant of a given material and rod length. "Speed" is the time it takes the rod to load and flex on the backcast, load and flex on the forecast, and recover to neutral attitude. The simplest way to observe this process is in the path (more or less an arc) the tip-top travels. If most of the flex is in the upper third of the rod, the arc is shorter and the rod "fast." If the same length/material rod flexes mostly down to the around the middle, the arc is longer, and the rod is "medium." If the flex is to the handle, the arc is longest, and the rod is "slow."
In other words--the flex characterisitcs of the rod determine its "speed." Differences in tip-time-distance travel ("speed") of rods with similar flex patterns are explained by use of different material


Top
  
Quote
Post 12 Jan 2019, 15:49 • #28 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 11/06/17
Posts: 2498
Location: South of Joplin
Raining again and flooded in at home so working my way through understanding what is meant by unlikely terminology and other odd stuff. Parametric started me down a rabbit hole, then there is the notion that it relates to parabolic.
Parametric: adj. relating to or expressed in terms of a parameter or parameters.
Parameter: n. a numerical or other measurable factor forming one of a set that defines a system - a limit or boundary that defines the scope of a particular process
Parabolic: adj. of or like a parabola or part of one.
Parabola: n. a two-dimensional, mirror-symmetrical curve, which is approximately U-shaped

Thanks Whirpool for your description relating depth of flex and distance of tip travel to described "action speed" of a rod; the notion that it can only be compared in the same material had not previously worked it's way into my head. Cane to cane, glass to glass and carbon to carbon etc. and that it is a different quality than tip travel speed.
Also for the link to a perfect parabola divided in to parts that can easily be comparaed to the bend points in any rod.

In looking at that picture of a parabola, if you make any point on the line the tip of rod and any other point the butt of the rod, you can see that every rod action commonly used can be described as "fully parabolic" depending on where you start and stop.

Parametric simply means they followed a mathematical or measurable outline for the taper, so again every rod can be accurately described as parametric, unless of course it was an accidental one off.

Discussions I've read stating that one or another rod is more this or more that in these areas would seem most subjective or possibly deceptive, since the terms are almost universal.


Top
  
Quote
Post 13 Jan 2019, 07:51 • #29 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19078
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
looks like this thread needs to borrow this post, too
viewtopic.php?p=338343#p338343

as far as the flabby thing goes, better turn this thing on: all short graphite rods are parabolic by definition - they can't be anything else.
Sage TCR and RPLX are parabolic - they were designed that way. The 6'9" Fisher 3-pc graphite Combo rod is parabolic.
Short S-glass rods are semi-para at best (v. progressive).

As to how para are the Berkley rods, the 6'3" is as type as Driggs River, the longer rods have added progressive tips (ala Martha Marie) and even longer rods fit semi-para better than TCR-like.


Last edited by bulldog1935 on 13 Jan 2019, 10:03, edited 1 time in total.

Top
  
Quote
Post 13 Jan 2019, 09:08 • #30 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 09/05/07
Posts: 2153
Location: West Virginia
Bulldog 1935 wrote: "all short graphite rods are parabolic by definition - they can't be anything else."

Please explain.


Top
  
Quote
Post 13 Jan 2019, 11:09 • #31 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19078
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
Duff, MOC always gets people up in arms, but below about 7' using S-glass you can't get a fully soft progressive tip - you definitely can in a longer rod - fast progressive in the short rod, yes. Not even with cane - S-glass and cane tapers pretty much follow each other.
The tip has to be just-so thick to have enough strength. It's subtle, but e-glass can make a softer durable tip in a short light rod (Phillipson Midge).
It's much more so in graphite. You can't make a progressive taper at all in a graphite rod below 7' (8'?), and the faster tips required for minimum strength end up being para-taper rods - they flex in the mid and especially in the butt.

For people with the casting skills, that 6'9" 3-pc graphite Fisher combo works so well that T&T sold it as a stand-alone rod. It will cast every bit the distance as the 8'10" 4-pc progressive taper that accompanies the combo rod, showing the essential parts for loading the rod in a cast are all contained in the shorter para 3-pc. While the longer progressive rod is pleasing and forgiving, casting the shorter para has a tighter envelope on timing, haul, and arm motions. Both 3-pc and 4-pc configurations use the same top-2 pieces, changing the butt with 1 and 2 more pieces.

I do have a TCR-like long para S-glass in my go-to inshore rod, Izch PBEX8667. In the practice of fishing, it will do everything my Sage RPLX 7 will do, except causing joint pain from the shock of shooting line.

Explained, and not without effort...


Last edited by bulldog1935 on 13 Jan 2019, 12:59, edited 1 time in total.

Top
  
Quote
Post 13 Jan 2019, 12:06 • #32 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 11/06/17
Posts: 2498
Location: South of Joplin
Look at that parabola, understand that a parabola can be wide or narrow, and every rod bend can be described as "like a parabola or part of one", whether it bends most at the tip or at the mid or in the butt just depends on what part of the curve you chose to use.

In the past I have always thought that to be "parabolic" it would have to bend most in the mid and bend uniformly around a point on the mid, which doesn't describe the rods marketed as parabolic. Parabolic like parametric is applicable to all fly rods.


Top
  
Quote
Post 13 Jan 2019, 13:02 • #33 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19078
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
what makes a fully parabolic rod is that the rod loads throughout most of its length to shoot line like a bow - Driggs River.
The parabola is a convenient representation, but not a load curve for the rod, and exaggerates the difference between a para and progressive (progressive is fast in the mid).
A rod like a Martha Marie with added softer progressive tip for friendly close fishing and dry-fly striking, loads through the lower 70 to 80% of the rod to shoot line.
If you followed my explanation on the 5 pieces that make a Fisher Combo, a short 3-pc para and a long 4-pc progressive, the same length of the rod loads to shoot line in both configurations. And it kind of has to, since you're dealing with the same two tip pieces.
Note the tiny butt on this 7'4" 5wt - this particular taper, John Pickard, has 2" of softer tip added over PHYs Driggs taper (it's really quite a nice rod - Sante has one, too, and listed it as his all-time favorite rod).
Image
Using the RPLX example again, I've consistently shot 140' with the rod using a TS-250 and basket. The rod is loading from stem to stern and building incredible line speed to do that. You do this with good timing, haul, smooth controlled acceleration and arm movements, and false casts just for building line speed. If you look down the length of the rod, the tip is thicker than any other 7wt - fishing close, it's an 8-1/2-wt - and the butt much thinner than any other 7wt.

A 7'10" 5-wt para rocketship - nothing soft on this rod - my buddy Floyd Burkett's Guadalupe taper, weighted up from a Wayne Cattanach taper, but you can also see the thin butt on this rod.
If the flows will drop below 700 cfs so I can get to our tailwater this winter, this is the rod I'll take, to fish the same bugger/dropper rig.
(700 cfs on the Guadalupe tailwater is pontoon-raft fishing - good time to hire a guide)
Image


Last edited by bulldog1935 on 15 Jan 2019, 09:07, edited 7 times in total.

Top
  
Quote
Post 13 Jan 2019, 13:05 • #34 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 11/06/17
Posts: 2498
Location: South of Joplin
The loaded rod bends? If it does that bend is like part of a parabola, so, parabolic.
It quit raining, I'll go see if the roads are passable.
I just (maybe) guessed what MOC is, material of construction?


Top
  
Quote
Post 13 Jan 2019, 15:09 • #35 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 03/16/08
Posts: 3540
Location: Upstate-NY
I thought the definition of a parabolic taper was a STIFF mid.
Presumably to force the butt section to engage much sooner than in a progressive taper. likewise, the bottom 1/3 butt taper is thinner proportionally, to elicit the same behavior.

so: soft butt, stiff mid, and usually a stiff tip.

is it not so simple?


Top
  
Quote
Post 13 Jan 2019, 16:19 • #36 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19078
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
Essentially with para, as line line is being added, the rod feels just a little softer with each increment loading farther down the rod, so the energy stored in the top portion of the rod is still able to load the line, as well.
My load taper descriptions that I wrote for karstopo, and linked to, begin with progressive and compare how other tapers change from there.
viewtopic.php?p=338343#p338343

The closest rods I know to pure para are the Para/metric 6'3", of course the Type Para Driggs River, Floyd's Guadalupe, and the graphite technical casting rods. Certainly Charles Ritz tapers, which were designed for casting tournaments fit in here as well.
Para is a casting tool to get the greatest possible line speed out of the rod length. Derived rod tapers deviate from a para starting point to make the rods more fishable. One direction they go is adding longer softer tip. Also adding a longer slightly stiffer portion to the butt - semi-para, which you can also get to by taking a wet-fly taper and making the tip faster - Heddon 8' cane tapers are Right Here, and the longer para/metrics - these rods excel at throwing big hardware.

But faster mid (than the tip) by definition is progressive taper - in a progressive taper, the mid is everything for loading in most fishing, you progressively gain a little more stifness down the rod as more line goes out, and the power curve will eventually run out. Look at it as a bandwidth of stored energy progressively moving down the rod with more line out.
You're still fishing out of the mid in a para, but there's more and more energy to store all the way to the butt, and when you do, the tip is still storing energy, as well - the bandwidth of energy keeps getting wider as you move it down the rod, and the tip is still working hard.

As I mentioned on the linked post, the soft tip and fast mid make progressive tapers forgiving. Wet fly tapers/ semi-para are forgiving.
Para tapers generally aren't forgiving, but reward good form with amazing casts.

Trev, yes, MOC is material of construction, but for rods, equate it to specific or equivalent modulus.


Last edited by bulldog1935 on 13 Jan 2019, 16:28, edited 2 times in total.

Top
  
Quote
Post 13 Jan 2019, 16:24 • #37 
Master Guide
Joined: 05/20/12
Posts: 980
Location: Eugene, OR
This article helped me understand parabolic action pretty well. I hope it’s okay that I’m linking it here: http://fishinghistory.blogspot.com/2011 ... n.html?m=1
Don’t lose too much sleep over the name “Para/metric,” it’s just a borrowed term that sounds scientific and sort of suggests ‘parabolic.’ A snazzy name for a nice series of fly rods, some of which are truly parabolic in action.


Top
  
Quote
Post 13 Jan 2019, 17:03 • #38 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 09/05/07
Posts: 2153
Location: West Virginia
Corey, yes, every explanation of a "parabolic" rod I have ever read describes it as having a relatively stiff mid and tip with a soft butt and having nothing to do with the shape of a parabola.

Here is an explanation by one of the best contemporary rod designers (and casters):

"There’s a lot of confusion associated with parabolic rods. This is probably because there’s no “real” definition of the term as it relates to fly rods. The name goes back to the 1930s with rods originally designed by Jim Payne and John Alden Knight and later with Charles Ritz. In the most basic terms you can think of a parabolic rod as having a more powerful tip and mid combined with a softer butt section. This powerful upper section taps into the rod’s butt section more quickly allowing the caster to utilize the butt section through a wider range of casting distances. This generates a lot of power and line speed in the hands of a competent caster." - Mike McFarland


Top
  
Quote
Post 13 Jan 2019, 20:25 • #39 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 04/26/12
Posts: 1778
Location: Dubois Pa
As above is how I build my bamboo para's. Young's Para had a soft tip, stiff mid, and a soft butt. Also known as a double action. Payne and Garrison's para where stiff tip and mid, soft butt. As stated above to tip and mid load the butt quickly. These can be powerful rods.

PS. You can make a sub 7' cane rod with a soft tip. I have and cast many others.
Bob


Top
  
Quote
Post 13 Jan 2019, 21:41 • #40 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 11/06/17
Posts: 2498
Location: South of Joplin
A.J. McClane seems to say that parabolic rods have progressive action. I'm not sure what to think though when he confuses grains and grams.
He does say the term parabolic is taken from the shapes the rod takes on as it loads, or the series of parabolic bends it goes through.
McClane also gives Ritz full credit as the inventor of the parabolic rod with no mention of Payne or Knight.

So, Bob, you are saying that a soft butt and stiff mid make it parabolic whether the tip is soft or stiff?


Top
  
Quote
Post 14 Jan 2019, 06:11 • #41 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19078
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
Paul Young made so many different styles derived from para tapers, it's incorrect to generalize them as anything other than starting with para.
Perfectionist and Martha Marie fit the progressive tip description, but not Driggs. Paul Young also made paras aimed at salmon, bass and inshore, which compare more to TCR than anything progressive. His biggest customer became his partner - Don West in Texas, turning PHY bass and inshore rods. Don West also derived his tapers from those of his business partner.
http://phydatabase.com/serial-numbered-rods/
Aside from this Bob, if you have questions about PHY tapers ask Rob Sherill, TXtrout on FFR, who's a student of Don West.

repeating to be on topic
bulldog1935 wrote:
The closest rods I know to pure para are the Para/metric 6'3", of course the Type Para Driggs River, Floyd's Guadalupe, and the graphite technical casting rods. Certainly Charles Ritz tapers, which were designed for casting tournaments fit in here as well.
Para is a casting tool to get the greatest possible line speed out of the rod length. Derived rod tapers deviate from a para starting point to make the rods more fishable. One direction they go is adding longer softer tip. Also adding a longer slightly stiffer portion to the butt - semi-para, which you can also get to by taking a wet-fly taper and making the tip faster - Heddon 8' cane tapers are Right Here, and the longer para/metrics - these rods excel at throwing big hardware.

sub-7' cane with a soft tip still has to be based on a para taper - I would be more than surprised if you could make a good sub 7' cane rod with a fully progressive taper

Can't really see the taper here, but I think this is Rob's 7'6" 6-wt version of a PHY Para 14 (15?, whichever one is lighter), hooked up to a Guadalupe bass, in the middle of this great trico hatch.
Straight across the river is the bat-cave vent where Trinity aquifer sources from the Guadalupe surface flow.
Image
I was definitely fishing my Cummings Water Witch that day, which takes progressive flex to new limits, but turns into a fairly crisp rod with the 130-gr head I was fishing.
(definitely nothing para here)
Image
bulldog1935 wrote:
The simplest descriptions always get certain people on their soapboxes and will get me misquoted out of context.


Last edited by bulldog1935 on 16 Jan 2019, 06:45, edited 1 time in total.

Top
  
Quote
Post 14 Jan 2019, 07:44 • #42 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 04/26/12
Posts: 1778
Location: Dubois Pa
I had a big write up, I deleted it. Lets agree to disagree. If anyone wants my opinion pm me.

Bob

Image


Top
  
Quote
Post 14 Jan 2019, 07:55 • #43 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 10/09/09
Posts: 2796
Location: US-NM
Bob,that's a beautifull kitchen .........Aurelio


Top
  
Quote
Post 14 Jan 2019, 08:09 • #44 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19078
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
the thing is, we're not disagreeing much, if at all, though a couple of collaborated challenges have been made in the form of feigned questions that really weren't looking for answers.
We are dealing in subjective terms. How soft, how progressive, how para are all relative. The fact remains, para and progressive are opposite ends of the taper spectrum - the former starting with the deepest-flexing possible butt, and the latter a stiff butt starting with a soft tip. Also what makes a good rod and a bad rod is going to be subjective, and depends on where and how it's used.
And this is still a thread about Berkley para/metrics, which really are parabolic with the same type of taper tweaks that cane rods get.


Last edited by bulldog1935 on 14 Jan 2019, 08:26, edited 2 times in total.

Top
  
Quote
Post 14 Jan 2019, 08:21 • #45 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 04/26/12
Posts: 1778
Location: Dubois Pa
Aurelio Thank you, I built it a few years back.

BD,
I do also agree with most of what you said, to discuss more online for me just adds more confusion to the thread. 75% of the tapers I design have a kick or slight hinge around the stripper which adds that said I like flexible butt.

Bob


Top
  
Quote
Post 14 Jan 2019, 08:27 • #46 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19078
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
winter there is a great time to build them, too, so you can fish them in spring


Top
  
Quote
Post 14 Jan 2019, 10:54 • #47 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 03/16/08
Posts: 3540
Location: Upstate-NY
couple more random thoughts on paras:

IZCH from Japan are the most extremely parabolic rods Ive ever cast. (any material)

You know you are fishing a para when you get a good fish on. that “hinge” in the butt section that everyone talks about when casting a para seems to put a lot more strain on ones wrist when fighting a fish. A progressive rod seems to fight a fish more easily along the rods length and progressively stiff taper.

I seem to enjoy paras most when fishing longer (8’ and longer) length and heavier (5wt and heavier) weight rods. I like them for swinging a trio of wets for trout and also tossing big bugs and poppers to LM bass. Never really appreciated their qualities when fishing short/light rods on small streams.

I never saw the benefit to using a para rod for dry fly fishing for trout. If anyone would care to comment to enlighten me - I'm all ears.

Paras I currently own and fish:
Curt Gowdy 7'0" #6 - Doesn't get used much. I like it just ok. Like I mentioned - I like paras better in longer rods for the most part.
Curt Gowdy 8'0" #7 - My go to for tossing bass poppers.
Menscer 8'0" #5 (bamboo) - lots of fun to swing a trio of wets with. This (Payne school) para taper loads great on the lift of line from the water, and then re-directs and shoots line from a single back cast.
IZCH 8'3" #5 - lots of fun to swing a trio of wets with. This extreme para taper loads great on the lift of line from the water, and then re-directs and shoots line from a single back cast. This is the rod I REALLY feel it in my wrist when fighting a big trout. the "hinge" is right above the cork.


Last edited by corlay on 14 Jan 2019, 11:04, edited 3 times in total.

Top
  
Quote
Post 14 Jan 2019, 11:18 • #48 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19078
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
I mentioned my S-glass Izch inshore is a 7wt rocketship without the shock of RPLX. (Izch is Japan phonetic for Issac)
Image
Paras can also be fast and slow. The Driggs and Floyd Guadalupe I show above are both 5-wt, but the first as slow as can be made in cane - still crisp - and the latter rocket-fast - more of a distance casting tool.

Dry-fly fishing is why you add progressive tips to para tapers, short great casting rods with friendly tips. You lose distance with this, but you gain fishing qualities. Without that, fully para will pop your tippet on strike, and why I really love my 7-1/2' to 8' super-progressive dry fly rods. Though I haven't used it there (yet), I would trust my Pickard Driggs for mountain trout.
Might be nice to hear from Aurelio whether he's fished dries on his 6'3" Para/metric and what he thinks about it.
Thomas Light Special (this is the super progressive with flared butt)
Image

My buddy Jimbo took his Floyd to the mountains (he's in Montana every summer), but rods don't get too fast for him.


Last edited by bulldog1935 on 15 Jan 2019, 06:53, edited 5 times in total.

Top
  
Quote
Post 14 Jan 2019, 12:43 • #49 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 06/24/11
Posts: 1144
Location: Belgium
Most everything's been said above. Would just add that parabolic rods naturally feel like they load/bend at the butt first and tip last - while progressive rods feel like they load/bend first at the tip. To get the most from either taper you generally want to cast a progressive rod off the tip and a parabolic off the butt (how the caster translates, rotates and accelerates will affect where the bend is placed in the rod) - but it's not mandatory and not even desirable for all casts.

The parabolics with a progressive tip will feel like they load at the tip first when under lighter loads (less line or underlined) and first at the butt under heavier loads. This kind of taper can be confusing to the inexperienced caster because the transition in feeling is unexpected and not always easy to manage.


Top
  
Quote
Post 15 Jan 2019, 07:15 • #50 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19078
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
exactly right, para rods don't come together until you make smooth, controlled (short) arm movements with haul.
In the groove, though, they're really something special.

There are two approaches to casting, which relate to power application and timing. One is leading the rod with arm movements - my buddy Mick, a great-hearted type A individual (grandson of a TX Democrat governor), puts his shoulder and back into it from the start. If the rod has a spot that's going to overload and collapse the loop, this is how you'll find it - aggressive timing on the cast.
The other is following the rod - less load from your arm (none from your shoulder and back), and more from haul with your line hand - short arm movements - giving the rod just what it wants, and this is what lighter para tapers respond to.
With your distance rockets, you put both together in your final stroke to get the greatest line speed and distance.


Last edited by bulldog1935 on 15 Jan 2019, 08:46, edited 1 time in total.

Top
  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  

Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next New Topic Add Reply



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Google
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group