It is currently 28 Mar 2024, 12:49


1, 2  Next New Topic Add Reply
Author Message
Break Strength
Post 30 Apr 2023, 07:49 • #1 
Sport
Joined: 12/25/22
Posts: 65
Location: Hartford, CT
Ironically, just last night I was reading the rod papers forum and read about break strength of rods, I think it was on the Winston page. Then went out for a quick session this morning, chucking some streamers with a sinking tip line on my old Daiwa 2045 and snagged a rock and pulled a little too hard.
The paper said something about not to bend the rod with a big fish (or snag) more than 45-50 degrees radius I think for graphite rods, and they said 1/3 of that for fiberglass. I tried recalling my high school geometry and I believe a radius is 1/2 of a diameter so this statement didn't sit well (and obviously I didn't apply the concept well this morning). My thinking is they mean the "ray" made by the arc of the bend in the rod. But 1/3 of 50 degrees seems kind of shallow for a fiberglass rod bend. Especially given all the classic images of fly fishermen with rods bent high up in the air, seemingly bent with very steep angles. So thankfully I am learning on my "beater" rod and not my more treasured boyhood FF755 (or my father's FF806). Any insights into this concept of break angles for fiberglass rods, now that I am more immediately connected to it. And my quest for a new 8'6" glass rod gains a little more haste! Thanks.


Last edited by greenteal on 13 May 2023, 14:15, edited 1 time in total.

Top
  
Quote
Re: Break Strength
Post 30 Apr 2023, 08:49 • #2 
Guide
Joined: 02/17/23
Posts: 112
Ouch! That's disappointing!


Top
  
Quote
Re: Break Strength
Post 30 Apr 2023, 10:42 • #3 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 12/05/06
Posts: 2086
Location: US-PA
I can't speak to "break angles" but I can speak to roll casting to change the direction of pull or moving upstream or downstream to accomplish the same thing or pointing my rod directly at the snag and pulling the line...

...and never, ever, ever jerking the rod hard or using any rod made of any material to pull a snag free.

I also don't do the "Orvis thing" when playing or landing a fish...

I guess that's why I never broke a rod...


Top
  
Quote
Re: Break Strength
Post 30 Apr 2023, 11:25 • #4 
Master Guide
Joined: 09/23/18
Posts: 614
Location: Eastern Wa
Bummer. One would think there had to be some sort of microscopic flaw or something going on there, perhaps propagated by a weighted fly hitting the blank in the past or something. Im no expert in material science but i am an expert in breaking graphite rods (a dozen or 2 including several Sages like the 490LL, 490RPL, and 389LL). Ive been much luckier with fiberglass. Car doors and pickup beds with loose gear are much more common factors than casting, fish fighting, or desnagging breaks for me.


Last edited by fishhuntmike on 30 Apr 2023, 13:41, edited 3 times in total.

Top
  
Quote
Re: Break Strength
Post 30 Apr 2023, 12:26 • #5 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 11/06/17
Posts: 2498
Location: South of Joplin
Many snags will roll cast loose and sometimes simply slacking the line will let the current free the fly, but when truly hung up and pulling is required to break tippet or band hook free I let zero force be on the rod, as Bamboozle said point the rod so that it is directly in line with the fly line before pulling on just the line, I never put any rod bend at all against a snag. And not very much bend against a fish, which is why I put the rod to one side or the other when fighting a fish it lets me see what bend/strain that I am applying, if the rod is lifted high as in most pictures it is not visible and may easily be inadvertently over bent.

I will say though, that from my experience I think graphite rods break much easier than fiberglass rods, or that may be that 'glass rods can bend much farther than graphite without breaking. It may take more force to bend the graphite rod to the breaking point.

And if I recall my geometry, neither radius nor arc can be applied to fly rod curves. Almost all fly rods, all that I have seen anyway, bend in some segment of a parabola rather than a segment of a circle.


Top
  
Quote
Re: Break Strength
Post 30 Apr 2023, 13:21 • #6 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 02/27/16
Posts: 2327
Location: US-IL
Bummer,never broke a glass rod but have broken several graphite rods,usually UL.Have had some modern glass 3 wts doubled over under a dock i was standing on that i thought for sure would break but didn't.


Top
  
Quote
Re: Break Strength
Post 30 Apr 2023, 15:56 • #7 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 06/23/05
Posts: 4966
Location: US-MT
ALmost certainly had an issue there. You can bend a glass rod more than a graphite.


Top
  
Quote
Re: Break Strength
Post 01 May 2023, 06:53 • #8 
Sport
Joined: 12/25/22
Posts: 65
Location: Hartford, CT
Here's the page I was referring to regarding rod care and not to bend a fiberglass rod more than "1/3 the radius of that for graphite", it was from a Scott document:


Top
  
Quote
Re: Break Strength
Post 01 May 2023, 07:26 • #9 
Guide
Joined: 08/19/16
Posts: 314
Location: Brazil
With all due respect, those instructions from Scott for "graphite" and fiberglass rods seem pretty ambiguous and confusing.


Top
  
Quote
Re: Break Strength
Post 01 May 2023, 08:41 • #10 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19077
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
I've always used a roll cast to free up a snagged fly.
But certainly, if you're going to break off your tippet, drop the rod and pull the line.


Top
  
Quote
Re: Break Strength
Post 01 May 2023, 09:13 • #11 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 06/09/05
Posts: 2524
Location: US-CO
What Bulldog says.

But that failure tells me something was wrong at that spot and it was waiting to happen.


Top
  
Quote
Re: Break Strength
Post 01 May 2023, 10:53 • #12 
Guide
Joined: 07/07/19
Posts: 221
Location: US-WI
What Bulldog and Paveglass said.

I once broke a fiberglass rod in about the same location on the blank you did — while false casting! I had carelessly “dinged” the blank pretty hard with a weighted fly a couple minutes earlier. Lesson learned…


Top
  
Quote
Re: Break Strength
Post 01 May 2023, 15:32 • #13 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 11/06/17
Posts: 2498
Location: South of Joplin
@greenteal, my math is long disused and I may not get this right, but my take on the Scot paper is that they were not mathematicians either.
In talking about the graphite rod they say degrees of arc, no mention of radius, which really tells us nothing about the curvature of the rod, because we don't know what the radius of arc is, we only know that the length of arc is the rod length and the curve is "a flat arc". Flat arc also tells us nothing.
But, if we keep the same length of arc (length of rod), rather than degree of arc, then on a very large radius the arc would approach a straight line and on a very short radius would be a tight curve. Think of a 1 inch line measured on the circumference 1' circle and and a similar 1" line measured on a 3' circle and we can see that 1/3 R gives us a much tighter bend than R does.
So, my take on the paper is that they are saying roughly "the fiberglass rod can take much more abuse than the graphite rod can and you bend it three times as much."


Top
  
Quote
Re: Break Strength
Post 01 May 2023, 17:39 • #14 
Guide
Joined: 04/26/19
Posts: 179
Location: L'Étoile du Nord
I land fish on fiberglass fly rods just like the forum's avatar. Sorry about your rod, it probably had some damage and let go. So they take insane angles but how many pounds of pull, I don't know.

Add- I never broke a fiberglass rod.


Last edited by Unknownflyman on 14 May 2023, 14:45, edited 1 time in total.

Top
  
Quote
Re: Break Strength
Post 02 May 2023, 06:36 • #15 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19077
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
A damaged spot in the rod blank is logical.
Most rod breakage relates to strain rate - how fast is the rod is being overloaded,
in simpler terms, how hard did you jerk (which is a physical measurement - time derivative of acceleration and force, 2nd time derivative of velocity)
Another given in rod breakage is torsion - how much twist in the rod confined to how small length of the rod.

My only broken rod was a 13Fishing Omen Green ML that only broke because a redfish and I together did exactly the wrong things at the same time.
On a kayak, he came out of the water to eat my lure as I was taking it out of the water, right by my knee.
I made a high-stick set at the exact instant the redfish exploded (I should have waited for his run to set). Landed the fish on 2/3 of the rod, had my back-up in my kayak hold and finished a great trip.
I considered the breakage my fault, and when I called about their discount replacement program, they told me break while fishing is warranty, and they sent me a new rod.
It was this guy, right here.
Image


Last edited by bulldog1935 on 05 May 2023, 07:35, edited 1 time in total.

Top
  
Quote
Re: Break Strength
Post 02 May 2023, 15:56 • #16 
Guide
Joined: 05/22/16
Posts: 159
Location: US-Eastern KY
I broke one 30+ some years ago. It was a Browning, grey fiberglass with the black foam grip, an 8 ft. 6wt. as I remember. It was on a forward cast in the middle of a stream and folded just below the ferrule. I am almost positive it was due to a nick in the blank. It was kind of a sickening feeling. I still have the stripper guide and I never liked that foam grip.


Top
  
Quote
Re: Break Strength
Post 10 May 2023, 11:17 • #17 
Guide
Joined: 05/13/20
Posts: 250
Location: Lake Junaluska, NC
bulldog1935 wrote:
I've always used a roll cast to free up a snagged fly.
But certainly, if you're going to break off your tippet, drop the rod and pull the line.


Perhaps there was a nick from a fly, split shot, tree branch, or such. I have broken two rods in my life, but both of mine were from operator error, while trying to tail or land a couple of nice fish (it's my story, so of course they were nice ones...). Both times, I had the rod high behind me, leaning down for the fish, worn out knees buckled, and went rolling on the rocks. Beyond my clumsy aerobatics, my rods probably would have survived.


Top
  
Quote
Re: Break Strength
Post 10 May 2023, 12:09 • #18 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 04/20/07
Posts: 8920
Location: US-ME
Stylish appearance notwithstanding, the inverted J position is among the worst you can put a fly rod in. If there is a weak spot, whether from damage or manufacture, that position may find it. Fiberglass is more impervious to impact damage from split shot, scrapes, and knicks than graphite, but has its limits too. When a rod breaks at the butt like that, a knick could be the straw that broke the camels back. Forcing the lower third of the rod beyond its limits--too aggressively "giving it the butt"--will break any rod. It's even fun to try with a junker. A hand placed way forward of the grip in a rod not designed for a foregrip will also make a nice breaking point. In playing fish, the whole rod should be used in its normal flex paths. Or pointed at the fish with the reel alone providing resistance. That's a technique for stiff graphite, though, and seldom with resilient fiberglass. About the only time a glass rod needs to be pointed straight is to break off from a snag. The rod won't break.


Top
  
Quote
Re: Break Strength
Post 10 May 2023, 20:28 • #19 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 06/11/05
Posts: 1008
Location: US-NY
greenteal wrote:
Ironically, just last night I was reading the rod papers forum and read about break strength of rods, I think it was on the Winston page. Then went out for a quick session this morning, chucking some streamers with a sinking tip line on my old Daiwa 2045 and snagged a rock and pulled a little too hard.
The paper said something about not to bend the rod with a big fish (or snag) more than 45-50 degrees radius I think for graphite rods, and they said 1/3 of that for fiberglass. I tried recalling my high school geometry and I believe a radius is 1/2 of a diameter so this statement didn't sit well (and obviously I didn't apply the concept well this morning). My thinking is they mean the "ray" made by the arc of the bend in the rod. But 1/3 of 50 degrees seems kind of shallow for a fiberglass rod bend. Especially given all the classic images of fly fishermen with rods bent high up in the air, seemingly bent with very steep angles. So thankfully I am learning on my "beater" rod and not my more treasured boyhood FF755 (or my father's FF806). Any insights into this concept of break angles for fiberglass rods, now that I am more immediately connected to it. And my quest for a new 8'6" ********* glass rod gains a little more haste! Thanks.


When they say “1/3 the radius”, they are most likely referring to what is known as the “radius of curvature”, as this is how curvature is typically defined in geometry. In other words, find a circle that has the same curvature as the bent rod at the point of interest. The radius of that circle is the radius of curvature at that point. The smaller the radius of curvature, the “curvier” it is. So, they are suggesting that fiberglass can be bent into a curve that is 3 times as curved as graphite.

The 50 degree number has nothing to do with that. It is most likely the angle that the rod handle makes with the horizontal.


Top
  
Quote
Re: Break Strength
Post 10 May 2023, 22:04 • #20 
Master Guide
Joined: 07/12/17
Posts: 390
Location: SW B.C.
PampasPete wrote:
With all due respect, those instructions from Scott for "graphite" and fiberglass rods seem pretty ambiguous and confusing.

Yes, the copy is saying that the fiberglass will bend into a loop 1/3 the diameter of an equivalent graphite rod, not that it would bend into a loop only 1/3 that of a graphite rod.


Top
  
Quote
Re: Break Strength
Post 10 May 2023, 22:33 • #21 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 06/21/06
Posts: 3080
Location: Orygun
I dunno that it's been mentioned (sorry old timers, I haven't read every word here yet...lol). But, that looks like a prior injury that may have created a weak point...no way could I speculate what that may be.

That piece of paper said 1/3 of the angle? I'd love to see the actual numbers there. That just doesn't make sense to me.


Top
  
Quote
Re: Break Strength
Post 11 May 2023, 08:08 • #22 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19077
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
bulldog1935 wrote:
Most rod breakage relates to strain rate - how fast is the rod is being overloaded,
in simpler terms, how hard did you jerk (which is a physical measurement - time derivative of acceleration and force, 2nd time derivative of velocity)
Another given in rod breakage is torsion - how much twist in the rod confined to how small length of the rod.

They are all wrong. This guy is correct.
TX PE No. 75665

High sticking concentrates the strain in a short length of the rod. Most people who high stick are trying to show off the bend in the rod.
Fishing under crowded conditions, had a guide tell me to high stick the rod so the other guide boats could see that we were catching the big fish (not with my rod).
Low rod during a fight is using more reel.
High rod during a fight is using more rod - the flex in the rod protects tippet and small hooks in soft mouths.

Image
(of course you can't hold the camera and thumb the spool at the same time)
Image

This is when you have no choice but to high stick - landing a fish on the long rod.
Everything should be gentle here, with no reason to twist and jerk.
Image

Landing big fish on light tackle has its own behavioral science - back to that jerk thing.
The guys you see running down the bank of the San Juan with their 3-wts used jerk to "announce their presence with authority"
(the Bull Durham rookie allusion is part of the point).
Setting the hook is a solid pull that should never use jerk - with a fly rod, you should mostly be pulling the line.
Early in the fight, use just enough pressure to keep the fish confused and away from places you don't want them to go, and they will nose upstream and tire themselves against the current.
Keep your stealth up.
When their confusion turns to fear is when they turn down river, and if you have them tired enough then, they won't tax either themselves or your rod.

Image


Top
  
Quote
Re: Break Strength
Post 11 May 2023, 13:04 • #23 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 06/11/06
Posts: 2516
Location: Nature Coast Florida
I had a Garcia snap at about the same point while casting. Instead of throwing it away I moved the ferrule to where the break occurred and made it into a fun little five foot rod. I have no rod building skills and wasn't going to spend any money fixing it, so this was the best I could do with some sewing thread and Sally Hansen Hard as Nails.


Top
  
Quote
Re: Break Strength
Post 11 May 2023, 22:03 • #24 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 06/21/06
Posts: 3080
Location: Orygun
Yep. Any rod I've broken by not slipping and either falling on it, or it hitting a rock were by the jerk on one end jerking on the other end.... :lol


Top
  
Quote
Re: Break Strength
Post 13 May 2023, 12:01 • #25 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 09/18/09
Posts: 5561
Location: Relocated to the Drought Stricken West.
My thoughts are the same as Clarkman's. I've broken rods by slipping down a bank, and letting the tip take the brunt of my fall. And by jerking a rod out of a tree or rock (and I think there have been flaws on the blank already). But I've fished some beat up rods with dings on them that look weak, but they will take a good bend if you don't jerk at them.

Just develop the habit. If the fly doesn't gently pull out, point the rod at the fly and pull on the fly line until the fly breaks off. Tried and true and it will save your rods.


Top
  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  

1, 2  Next New Topic Add Reply



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 27 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Google
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group