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Post 05 Dec 2019, 21:35 • #26 
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Joined: 06/08/16
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Location: US-MI
I’m not The Purist for no reason.... ;)


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Post 06 Dec 2019, 10:43 • #27 
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Joined: 08/10/05
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Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
John,
I have 3 go-to glass rods for the salt, though only one is vintage -
- my 1960 Harnell 652 8' 7-wt is my first choice for dock fishing the lights with a slime line.
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If the guides would fit a modern floating salt line, it would be my first choice for kayak fishing, as well.
The rod is too nice to alter.
As it is, CGR 7/8 with a Cortland Salt Guide WF7 floater is my sit-down quick presentation kayak rod.
The rod is Far Superior to any graphite rod for this niche - we've covered before that I put the rod and line combination together to deliver 60-70' on the 3rd stroke - a graphite rod won't get the leader out on the 3rd stroke.
The advantage being that the leader loads the glass rod, while it can't load a graphite rod - this is a quality every glass rod has over graphite.
The 7'6" CGR also has the ability to quickly present close to the boat in salt marsh sloughs, which is tough to do with 9' graphite.
I'll add there's nothing brilliant about the CGR, though it fishes in close extremely well - it's damn quirky to get that distance cast, and requires a narrow range in line belly weight. It's also made to handle big fish. Overall, the 1960 Harnell is a Much Better rod.
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Also stated before, for wading and either sight-fishing a floating line, long casts from a deck, or a TS-250 in tide passes and jetties, my Izch Para 8667 will do anything my Sage RPLX7 will do except shock your joints when you shoot line.
This is the Sage (para), and a decade before I found the Japanese inshore S-glass para.
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This is wading a barrier-island "lake", after shuttling kayaks across the big bay in a power boat, and paddling to the back of the lake to wade
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There's also a very good argument for progressive-taper Fisher graphite in this niche.
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Without a cast? My buddy Tim was wading back to the boat one day on Fence Lake, dragging a small red size 6 stainless popper simply being too lazy to take it up.
He caught a trolling slot redfish.
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Last edited by bulldog1935 on 09 Dec 2019, 07:51, edited 2 times in total.

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Post 06 Dec 2019, 20:36 • #28 
Master Guide
Joined: 04/07/18
Posts: 382
Location: Reston VA
What about the difference between vintage and modern glass rods as fish fighting and casting tools? That is a more germane comparison.

There are only a few big company rod makers out there now selling a few new fiberglass models and mainly as an afterthought. I contend that they don't really count.

'Boutique' small shop custom blank and rod makers have added a whole new dimension. Their improved blank designs, custom components, and materials alone set them aside from the Asian imports purveyed under big name labels. And they are blowing out the vintage glass in terms of final fit an finish and that intangible, aesthetic appeal. In this regard, we are in a Golden Age IMO. And in the out years when these rods become 'vintage'. some of these makers will be spoken of in hushed tones like Russ Peak.

I have both types of glass rods, if only a relative few vintage rods -- mainly Fenwicks -- which I enjoy a lot. But the Morgans, Steffens, Epics, McFarlands, etc. made by the most skilled guys who show their wares here are in a different world entirely.

I know this borders on heresy but, hell, start the fires.

Heddonist


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Post 06 Dec 2019, 21:34 • #29 
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Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
well no, it's not heresy, it's just off topic. Where do people come up with this stuff. That's at least the 3rd time on this thread people think they're controversial or antagonistic, or just want to be iconoclastic.

There is appropriate water for fishing 3-wt rods - mountain trout, Appalachian brookies, and glass shines there (though so does my Leonard Fairy Catskill No. 39, which is 105 years old this year) - the Japanese love their 2-wts (and even build really excellent XUL salt spinning rods for 2-lb test).
One other really good thing about the preponderance of great custom rods, is their price tag has kept the rare vintage glass rods under-priced with respect to their long-term value (this happens to be the Collecting forum).
But what's germane on this thread, and especially on this forum page, is the OP's question.


Last edited by bulldog1935 on 07 Dec 2019, 08:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Post 07 Dec 2019, 08:19 • #30 
Master Guide
Joined: 04/07/18
Posts: 382
Location: Reston VA
Could it be because the OP was not exactly answerable?

And my question was serious. Nostalgia aside. is there consensus on major/appreciable differences in how the modern and vintage glass tend to perform as fish handling and casting tools?

Heddonist


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Post 07 Dec 2019, 08:49 • #31 
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Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
Then consider You can't answer the OP's question from your experience base, but his question both correctly fits this forum page, has historic context, and even mathematical context.
Simply, why do you guys like these old rods v. newer graphite rods - that's a real question with real answers.
My suggestion is begin your own thread where it fits, on Glass Tech page, and please remember Fenwick is not the only venerable fly rod made from glass, nor may it be the be-all, end-all glass rod.
There are 41 makers with separate chapters in the 1st edition J&J book, and Fenwick is one.
Nostalgia has nothing to do with it. Form follows function.


Last edited by bulldog1935 on 07 Dec 2019, 08:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Post 07 Dec 2019, 08:53 • #32 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 04/20/07
Posts: 8921
Location: US-ME
Well, it was a sweeping question, but about "vintage" fiberglass compared with "modern" graphite.

A fun topic discussed in many previous threads is "vintage" vs "modern" fiberglass rods. The OP might enjoy using the search function to explore that, but let's stay on the query as presented.

I'll just say that graphite is "modern" primarily as a marketing slant, in cosmetic/style caprices, and/or in configurations suitable for fishing techniques not prevalent in the 'glass heyday. In other words, sometimes more "modern" in form; not so much in technology or manufacturer, refined over decades of IM (improved modulus) generations , the stiffer modulus forms trending over decades, and about topped out now.

Another way to think of it, very roughly in the fly fishing market, graphite was about 20 years "modern" on fiberglass, and even then as a material rather than a manufacturing process. Hollow tubular composites produced on a removable mandrel having been developed earlier, and then refined specifically to the newer material, graphite. Now we have 4 or 5 decades of graphite. It needs to be dressed differently to be "modern" in so far as that is important.

That's why I prefer the term "contemporary."

The material properties haven't changed. Graphite is stiffer than fiberglass and comes in several IM ("improved modulus") forms. "Improved" means stiffer, not necessarily better for fly fishing, although marketing conflated the two. In fishing rods, 'glass has only the two relatively unchanged forms, E-glass and S-glass, the latter being slightly stiffer. That's a rough overview that could be clarified with technical explanation, or with practical applications in fly fishing.


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Post 07 Dec 2019, 11:07 • #33 
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Sweeping, but honestly inquisitive for a recent new member of the forum.

Something to keep in mind is many of us began fishing glass, fished our graphite rods for 20 years, found something lacking in the new rods, and found it again by going back to glass (for the following 20 years to the present).
We fish different waters, and have prioritized our niches where different rod lengths, different MOCs, and even different lines work best for us in those niches. (That Cortland Salt guide that works so well on my CGR sucks on my Izch Para, which instead prefers a long front taper.)

btw Steve, graphite modulus peaked c. 1995, and most people found those rods so harsh to fish, subsequent graphite generations are blended with damping taking priority over "fast". Using Sage as the example, they occasionally turn out specialty rods where fast is king, such as TCR.


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Post 07 Dec 2019, 11:24 • #34 
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Joined: 11/06/17
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Location: South of Joplin
I guess sometimes "New & Improved" just indicates a new wrapper and improved marketing. I don't see a really great technological change since the removable/reusable mandrel. If you cut a pattern from silk with blue handled scissors and sew a dress or cut a pattern from wool with green handled shears and sew a coat the technology is pretty much the same.
But then I haven't kept up with the exact processes so I may have missed something.


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Post 07 Dec 2019, 12:04 • #35 
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Joined: 08/10/05
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Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
Trev, there's a world view factor that's different from each person's perspective - e.g, Attys need to see the world as arguments, that's how they're employed.
My engineering career in Materials Science, I see the world as mechanics of continuous media (and more than a little P-Chem), and get warm, fuzzy and nerdy when I think about the MOI of a spigot ferrule, especially one like this using a different-blended-modulus material in the spigots.
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Post 07 Dec 2019, 12:27 • #36 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 02/27/16
Posts: 2329
Location: US-IL
Nostalgia has nothing to do with it for me.I have Having come to this sport as a competent angler in every way except fly fishing,putting glass spinning and casting rods in the closet decades ago.My first fly rod was 6.5 Heddon 5 wt .Bought at a flea market for 5 dollars 20 plus years ago.I eventually taught my self to cast .O had been tying crude flies and tiny jigs for years.I bought a few lower end graphite fly rods.Not a lot of fun.Too much line speed for me.I could cast relatively far and worked well with subsurface flies.Around the same time a local mom pop sporting goods fishing shop was closing.Great older couple decided to retire.Both in their 80s.Bought 2 EC feather weights and my love of glass never stopped. These old rods ,some by the way never used before me,are new.I own a few modern glass.I have no desire for any big name big price glass.The older Winston's orvis Scott etc would be a nice find at the right price I guess but I could buy top of the line from any of the small custom builders here.I think boutique and rod builder is an insult.What is the definition of light?All my rods 7' and under are 3oz or less and I can feel every one of them load.Have gone back to glass for my ul spinning rods.With modern line with 0 stretch its a no brainer .I can cast small jigs farther ANF the fight is 10x the fun.And you can't break them.


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Post 19 Dec 2019, 20:30 • #37 
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Though I am pretty much strictly a vintage glass fly fisherman, I take no exception to the comments above comparing new glass to old, but the new rods are too expensive for my taste. I was told (don't know if its true) that there were no fly rods below a 5 wt in the 50s and 60s because they couldn't make a decent fly line in the lighter weights back then. If one wants a wispy, light, small stream rod in weights below 5, you almost have to buy modern glass. For me personally, fishing in the Rockies, after hiking in for an hour or so, knowing the wind could easily be blowing 20 knots...I take a 6 wt for insurance or, if I'm feeling lucky and the weather looks good, I'll take my favorite Lamiglass 4 wt. But I don't own a rod that I fish below a 4 wt.

Back to the OPs question, there are many vintage rods that cast extremely well in many brands, Phillipson, Fenwick, Heddon, Browning, Silaflex, Shakespeare, to name a few. In their day they were stepped in price and quality. Many cast very well, some did not. One of the benefits of this forum is that people will freely share their opinions based on what they like. I don't think you can go wrong with modern glass, especially from the custom rod builders known on this forum, but you will pay a price for the extremely high quality they deliver. The older rods were mass produced, with lower grade components, but the top-of-the-line models built in those years were pretty nice and they can be had for relatively little money.

When it comes to graphite, I agree with others above that they shine in longer lengths, and that their faster action matches the needs of certain fishing like salt water. I have a few but not many and after a short fling with graphite and a few broken rods, I went back to fiberglass and am glad I did. My Tenkara rod is graphite but I know it is fragile and I use it with due regard for that limitation.

Bowbender, I just gave my nephew a 8'6" Pflueger Summit (Shakespeare) fly rod that he will use specifically for roll casting from a boat with long leaders. We experimented and found that it would work well with lines from 6-9 wt. Just be sure that you are in touch with the fly (no extra slack from the rod tip to the fly), before rolling it over.

(Edited based on Bulldog's input below) An interesting point is that rods were made from wood for hundreds of years. Bamboo led as the building material for nearly a hundred. Graphite has dominated the industry since, oh about 1973, or said another way, for the last 45 years. Interestingly, fiberglass had a fairly narrow stretch of dominance, from about 1948 to about 1973...only 25 years. So we are truly niche-retros, whether we fish new glass or old. Best wishes to all my friends who take the road less traveled!


Last edited by paveglass on 21 Dec 2019, 21:42, edited 2 times in total.

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Post 20 Dec 2019, 10:30 • #38 
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no offense Donny, but split cane rods showed up after the Civil War. They were still pretty new when Doc Henshall published his book in 1881.
The hundreds of years thing were solid wood rods, often using different types of wood for different sections to get tapers, including Doc's 8'3" solid-wood bass rod formula published in 1874.
16'-18' solid wood, 36-44 oz, was a very typical fly rod, and some were even longer - if you were fishing this, I'd call you niche-retro.
here's the whole book - free view
the table of contents will click you to each of the chapters on tackle

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there's also a really nice clip feature in some google books and periodicals that lets you extract images
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I bought my first two graphite rods in 1984 and '86 - 7-1/2' Browning Hi-Power telescoping blade casting rod (the one-piece blade dropped into the butt below a sleeve ferrule for transport), then Powell Silver Creek IM6 fly rod - still have both rods, but don't use the heavy graphite casting rod any more.
Just shortly before that, '82 or so, bought a new Orvis Fullflex A, though the glass fly rod was admitted rare in Austin Angler stock by then, and they still had Sage glass (through 1990). I wouldn't say graphite dominated the market before 1980, but you're correct about the time it showed up.
There were great glass rods in every niche through the late 70s. (Fenwick Lunkerstik I bought in '78)

I have my prioritized niches for all rod MOCs, with little overlap, but it may be the cane that has a little obstinacy behind it.
To me, glass in the right niche is a no-brainer, because there are configurations where it works better than any other MOC, and you can build glass rod configurations that absolutely don't work in graphite, or even in cane.
And yes, filling that perfect niche for $120 v. $700 is also a no-brainer.
It's never been about retro, it's never been about nostalgia - though it probably does look that way from the outside - it's about being enlightened and understanding the differences to make enlightened choices.

I began buying cane before I returned to glass. That was something else - a $200 rod and $50 reel turned out to be an investment (those $50 reels peaking at $450), and I was closer to the fishing than the insulation of the new $500 graphite rods and $250 disc drag reels that literally took the joy out of fishing for me.
When I returned to glass, it was more or less a curiosity - venerable glass rods on ebay were unbelievably inexpensive then - until I found those rods fit my tight-creek niche much better than cane rods.

My first fly rod, btw, which was my 2nd purchase from high school weekend job in a tire shop, was 9' 8-wt WondeRod, faux bamboo look, bought in 1974, and fished from the salt to Tennessee tailwaters until I bought that Fullflex A. The inked numbers are long-since worn off, but the gold Shakespeare decal is there. (first purchase was a shotgun)
Before that, growing up, Heddon light spinning rod from Gibsons was my first selected tackle at 12 y-o - it got fished in the Rockies, and a Berkley Tri-Sport inshore spinning rod that doubled for a bass rod, I picked when I was 14 with a Mitchell 300.

Something else to keep in mind about fishing tackle and marketing. They sell it to us as technology and there are certainly improvements in complex reel mechanisms. But what they're really selling to us is improved manufacturing and especially reduced manufacturing costs to increase their profit margin - mostly, it's all calculated just to get us to buy one more.

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I guess shooting a dime at 75-yds with a falling block .22 and Creedmoor sights is niche-retro,
But I'll never understand the guys who bring ARs to the range simply to pummel their neighbors with brass and hear the noise they're making.
Plus, you can always get on a 75-yd range, and 300-yd ranges for a high-power varmint rifle are tough to come by.
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Last edited by bulldog1935 on 21 Dec 2019, 06:36, edited 2 times in total.

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Post 20 Dec 2019, 12:25 • #39 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 11/06/17
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Location: South of Joplin
Is that a Crackshot?


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Post 20 Dec 2019, 12:29 • #40 
Master Guide
Joined: 02/04/12
Posts: 705
Location: SE Pa
When I was a kid in the 1950s- early 60s, most people where I grew up here in Pa used fly rods, but few actually fly fished. We all used whatever line we had, about 6' of monofilament, and a snelled hook with a loop on it.

We used 8’-6” & 9” fly rods to bait fish for trout or whatever, swinging the worm or salmon egg & spit shot out into the creek or pond - a 9’ rod would get you 18’ of distance. That's how our Dads taught us how to fish. So that's why we preferred long rods even though they were a hassle to carry with trees, overhangs, etc. I’ve often thought that bait fishing with fly rods "back in that day" biased some people that a fly rod HAD to be long.

Anyways, it seems that more fly fishing is done with shorter rods now than it was 50 years ago.


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Post 20 Dec 2019, 12:57 • #41 
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Trev wrote:
Is that a Crackshot?

No, Winchester 1885 low-wall (Uberti replica).


Last edited by bulldog1935 on 22 Dec 2019, 14:35, edited 6 times in total.

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Post 20 Dec 2019, 13:00 • #42 
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springer1 wrote:
When I was a kid in the 1950s- early 60s, most people where I grew up here in Pa used fly rods, but few actually fly fished. We all used whatever line we had, about 6' of monofilament, and a snelled hook with a loop on it.

We used 8’-6” & 9” fly rods to bait fish for trout or whatever, swinging the worm or salmon egg & spit shot out into the creek or pond - a 9’ rod would get you 18’ of distance. That's how our Dads taught us how to fish. So that's why we preferred long rods even though they were a hassle to carry with trees, overhangs, etc. I’ve often thought that bait fishing with fly rods "back in that day" biased some people that a fly rod HAD to be long.

Anyways, it seems that more fly fishing is done with shorter rods now than it was 50 years ago.

Most people before the last two generations lived their lives with one rod, one reel, and one braided line.
It was a fly rod if they lived in trout country. They waxed the braided line to fish dries.


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Post 20 Dec 2019, 13:33 • #43 
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Back to what this thread was about.My rambling post and the OP was whether there are any modern rods configured the way the vintage rods are.Not seeing any glass 5 and 6 wts 7' or under unless you like Eagle claws and cgr.I wish someone made replicas of the old rods or at least gave the blanks a shot.Cork seats and tip over ferrules would lighten them up to todays standards,I think Chris Barclay had something close.There are many of us out here who do not fish trout as our primary fish.I use old rods because i cant but new versions of the same tool.Same as my job,they no longer make some of the specialized tools i use.Many of the replacements are unacceptable,make my life harder not better.


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Post 20 Dec 2019, 13:56 • #44 
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the simple question he asked has been answered - "how do vintage (glass) rods compare to new graphite rods," and the correct answer was they both have their place for most of us, because each excel in different places and uses.
I understand Cabelas made a really good 705 in their first glass rod series - while I might like having one of those, I wouldn't replace any of my venerable rods 6-1/2' to 7'7" with it.


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Post 21 Dec 2019, 21:47 • #45 
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Location: US-CO
No offense taken, thanks for the corrections Bulldog! Great posts...and love that falling block. I am a Winchester guy and have an old Model 67, .22 single shot with the factory peep sights that is a real shooter.


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Post 22 Dec 2019, 00:12 • #46 
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My dad has a 67 from when he was 6 years old - thumb trigger + finger trigger - it's also a shooter, but missing peep sights.


Last edited by bulldog1935 on 22 Dec 2019, 14:35, edited 2 times in total.

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Post 22 Dec 2019, 03:19 • #47 
Master Guide
Joined: 09/23/18
Posts: 614
Location: Eastern Wa
Sweet!!! Love those falling block guns!!


Last edited by fishhuntmike on 22 Dec 2019, 18:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Post 22 Dec 2019, 07:28 • #48 
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I'll add this, hoping to put the nostalgia factor regarding venerable glass rods to bed.
There were more than a few perfect glass rods that I've fished originating as far back as 1956, and were left behind by the industry wholesale transition to graphite. I've done my best on this thread to present some of them.

Image


Last edited by bulldog1935 on 22 Dec 2019, 18:15, edited 3 times in total.

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Post 22 Dec 2019, 09:55 • #49 
Master Guide
Joined: 09/23/18
Posts: 614
Location: Eastern Wa
On the subject of the OP i can attest that the latest vintage fly rod i purchased is the worst casting fly rod i have ever cast!!! It is a basically a new ABU Lapplandia 9' 9 weight. The rod feels like solid fiberglass (its not) and puts a giant sine wave in the line on each cast.
Ive have taken many engineering classes including pchem (should have taken more English) and understand exactly what Ron is saying about the wrong material application. But that hasnt stopped me from making stupid emotional purchases apparently. My fiberglass quiver has grown and trial and error has lead me to aquire more than half of my fiberglass fly rods (mostly vintage) in the 7.5' and under range (25 or so) and there are a few mistakes in the longer rods like the ABU. An area where fiberglass can work but does not apply to the OPs original question (modern) is the fiberglass spey rod. I have 3 of Echo's rods and the characteristics of those specific tapers work very well for spey casting (more feel, better timing for inexperienced spey anglers like me).
But i have found the good short fiberglass rods seem to be the finest application for the material. I have never cast a bamboo rod and im scared to try as i cant afford to get hooked on that one.

Close to 35 years ago i purchased a Sage graphite II 473LL (i guess that is vintage now). This was after i had the marvelous 490LL. Boy what a mistake. I wanted a small stream fly rod and assumed the manufacturer could not make a bad fly rod and i was wrong. That little rod was a stiff but light broompole and was nothing like the 490LL which was a perfect application of graphite material (i also ended up with a 389LL). I cut off the handle of that 473LL and the guides and built a spinning rod out of it (a lousy one). It took me over 30 years to discover how fine vintage fiberglass could be in the short lengths. I need to trade in this stupid little iPhone 4 im typing on as i am getting cross-eyed now.


Last edited by fishhuntmike on 22 Dec 2019, 18:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Post 22 Dec 2019, 13:56 • #50 
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Joined: 01/10/06
Posts: 7811
Location: Holly Springs, NC
The subject seems to have gone astray. I don't want FFR to get tagged as a firearms website. Corporate firewalls often block access to ’objectionable’ sites. A lot of members access the forum from work. If Google adds the wrong tags to our site description, the forum will get blocked.

For instance, I couldn't access the Tom Morgan Rodsmiths site from work, it had a 'weapons' tag. Obviously there were some trout involved in the website description.


Tom


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