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Post 28 Jul 2022, 13:07 • #1 
Sport
Joined: 09/14/20
Posts: 74
Location: Wisconsin
I wanted to tie up some shorter leaders for panfish and bass using Berkley Big Game mono and tippet material ala Bob Clouser. I think the article http://smallmouthflybox.blogspot.com/2012/07/leader-construction.html?_sm_au_=iTH0NVVWR5jRN27FML8tvK34L00HF was written by Jason or Gary Borger who included Clouser's formula. Clouser uses a loop-to-loop connection for the tippet, which I am going to try, but I am also going to try it with a tippet ring.

Anyway, I bought the Tie-Fast tool to tie nail knots, and saw in their demo video that you can tie nail-knot-to-nail-knot to splice lines, and you don't have to worry so much about stepping down a max of .02-.03 in. like you do with blood knots. I'm wondering if anybody else has tried using the nail-knot to nail-knot connection, and what their experience has been?


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Post 28 Jul 2022, 14:04 • #2 
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Joined: 11/06/17
Posts: 2498
Location: South of Joplin
Use the diameter of the larger piece and reduce by no more than 30% and it will work. fe- .017 x .7 = .0119 so my butt is .017" stepped to .012" & .012 x .7 = .0084 so my next step is to 3X etc.
I don't use the nail knots as a rule but have tried them. I do use the 25-30% as my reduction with the knots (grapevine bend) I use, rather than the 0.002" reduction called for by blood knots. If you go to Gary Borger's blog and poke around you will find that he uses a modified blood knot with more turns off the thinner section than with the thicker section, IIRC 5 turns of thinner and 3 turns of thicker- but don't rely on my memory. Gary also says the diameter can be reduced by as much as 35% at each step.
For what it's worth, when I was doing lots of leader experimentation, long time ago, I used loop to loop at every step-down, making it easy to interchange different length segments at any diameter and I found the loop to loop worked just about as well as blood knots on leaders up to ~15', so using a loop for the tippet is no problem, I've done that many times.


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Post 28 Jul 2022, 14:43 • #3 
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Joined: 06/21/06
Posts: 3080
Location: Orygun
I'm curious as to the advantages of using a tool to tie knots rather than learning to tie them properly without a tool? Does it really make it that much faster?


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Post 28 Jul 2022, 14:44 • #4 
Sport
Joined: 09/14/20
Posts: 74
Location: Wisconsin
Thanks for the feedback Trev. On the couple that I tied already I went from 30 lb. to 12 lb. (.022 to .014) using the nail knots. That fits into the 35% spec, so I'll have to see how it works. I've got both 25 lb. and 15 lb. Big Game, so I can go 30%, as well. The loop-to-loop for the tippet appeals to me because I had a little stroke a couple of years ago and I'm not quite as dexterous as I used to be. I've tried the Rio Twist Fly Clips for Panfish and Bass, and it doesn't seem to deter the fish. Maybe they would with trout, but it doesn't seem to bother the bluegills or bass. So... I could tie up some snell-like tippets with perfection loops on one end and the fly clips on the other for an easy change in the field. I can still tie on terminal tackle, but it's a lot easier for me to do it at the table rather than water-side or in the boat. I guess it's hell to get old.


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Post 28 Jul 2022, 14:50 • #5 
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When you are actually throwing a "fly" that is weighted and more like a jig, the "fly" pulls the leader straight. So bigger jumps in diameter work fine. Gradual step down (no more than two, may three thousandths at the most), is best for traditional leaders for traditional near-weightless flies that are cast. The gradual taper dissipates the energy of the cast to straighten the leader and deliver with fly, ideally with a slightly wavy landing (but "straight") of the leader. Where delicacy and control are less important because the fly pulls the leader, the leader can be more abruptly "tapered," because that is less important for delivery of the fly. The same is true for heavy sink tip lines that take a much less cumbersome-to-cast (fly cast) fly down. The leader can be floppier and sloppier as to dissipating the energy of the cast because the sink tip straightens the leader anyhow as the tip tows the leader and unweighted fly down. For the same reason short leaders and even single diameter (level) leaders work fine with some rigs that will be fished deep.

Incidentally, I think you mean blood knot or some other knot for mono to mono leader knots, not nail knot as used for leader butt to fly line.

Personally, I don't think any gadgets are needed to tie leader knots, especially if you tie up several leaders at home and will make only minor adjustments astream. But others find them convenient, so that part of it is a personal choice.


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Post 28 Jul 2022, 15:02 • #6 
Sport
Joined: 09/14/20
Posts: 74
Location: Wisconsin
Whirlpool, I didn't mean blood knot. I meant nail knot. You tie a nail knot on the smaller diameter line with the larger line, and vice versa, smaller line nail knot on the larger line, and pull them together. Basically, it's kind of like a uni-to-uni knot.

I'm using the tool because I lost some dexterity in my right (dominant) hand from a stroke. I read an article that said one of the advantages was that you don't have to make the smaller steps as you do with blood knots. We'll see. ;-)


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Post 28 Jul 2022, 15:22 • #7 
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Joined: 07/12/22
Posts: 207
I tie all my own saltwater leaders with hard and saltwater mono. And also my short leaders for intermediate lines. I just started fly fishing a little over a year ago and found the blood knot to be a pain. But have several different nail knot tools and each has its pros and cons. Using the tool while watching tv or having a beer and I can make custom leaders fast. Plus I have yet to have a nail to nail knot fail. I did some research but not much data. But I think it is a variation of the blood knot.


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Post 28 Jul 2022, 15:24 • #8 
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Joined: 09/18/09
Posts: 5561
Location: Relocated to the Drought Stricken West.
I've used the fast tie tool (and use it a lot for nail knots), but having developed the skill to tie blood knots by hand, I find they are easier to tie, but not quite as neat as the knots tied via the nailknot tool.


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Post 28 Jul 2022, 15:33 • #9 
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Joined: 04/20/07
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Location: US-ME
Thanks. I see the idea, and as Carlz said, it would be mostly a matter of personal preference and dexterity. I can tie a blood knot in darkness by skylight only but would probably be a complete duffer trying to use a tool to do it differently. Someone else would try the tool and become eyes-closed adept with that. The leader design, though, with larger step downs, is best with applications like you've chosen. I think of the casting and fishing purpose first and was focusing on that. For what it's worth, the old school way to larger stepdowns was either loop to loop, or the usual bloodknot, but the smaller strand doubled and treated as one strand, the knot then tied as usual.

When you get this kit/set-up mastered, would love to see pics and reports on how it worked for you.


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Post 28 Jul 2022, 16:11 • #10 
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Joined: 08/19/16
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Location: Brazil
Being rather an old-school type myself, I first learned to tie up my own leaders using blood knots. However, about 30 years ago the blood knots were largely substituted with the double surgeon's knot, which is easier to tie and permits more stepdown without losing strength. But sometimes I still prefer the blood knot because it is so symmetrical and nice-looking. The tag end also stands out a right angle to the main leader and is easy to leave long as a dropper.


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Post 28 Jul 2022, 16:15 • #11 
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Joined: 11/06/17
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Location: South of Joplin
I've not found that small steps did anything better than larger steps, except prevent blood knot slippage, and use up mono, I think the length of the sections does more to attenuate the speed and dissipate the energy than the diameter.
As I recall Borger's research showed that no hinging occurred with up to to 60% reduction of cross section, which he then resolved to be 35% of diameter. There was some mention in my readings that the .002" rule developed with gut and just carried over to modern materials, that was before my time. My personal experimentation was actually before I knew who Borger was, and I was rather surprised at how similar our leaders turned out. Don't fix what's not broke though and if you have a system that works, use it.

On those loop connections I found surgeons loops stronger and easier than the perfection loops.


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Post 28 Jul 2022, 16:49 • #12 
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Not to be argumentative but I see people repeating the error that the smaller diameter tippet “dissipates energy”. Some use the analogy that it acts a a decreasing diameter pipe and restricts the flow of energy. What it actually does is simple physics. F=MA. Force equals Mass times Acceleration. The force vector remains constant. The weight of the line which we will call Mass decreases as the Force travels along the line. The end of the line accelerates( moves faster) for the equation to remain in balance. Energy does not dissipate, it transforms. The reason your fly line stops where it does is because you put just the right amount of energy into the line to get it to a certain point. Less and it doesn’t straighten out. To much and it bounces back. The acceleration is what causes it to turn over the fly. It is the skill of the caster and not the leader that determines when it will stop.


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Post 28 Jul 2022, 16:52 • #13 
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Joined: 06/21/06
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@Fredderf thank you....couldn't have said it better myself. That said, I rarely worry too much about these things as my casting stroke seems to manage to get the job done regardless of how I have things rigged up.

As an aside, the mention of "fly"/jig made me chuckle...I guess I would think that if a "fly" is actually weighted like a jig, well by golly, I think it may be a jig.


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Post 28 Jul 2022, 17:02 • #14 
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Joined: 02/27/16
Posts: 2327
Location: US-IL
I make mine with uni knots easy and strong.For longer leaders i will use a dab of UV to make them not hang up in the guides.I think i still kind ot use Crusty's basic formulas.For bass fishing i just use 12lb fluro ,about 8 feet or so.I do find the tippet rings useful and am using them every time i make a new leader.
C- man ,a weighted fly is a weighted fly.Euro nymphing is basically jigging.Is a float and fly employed by bass anglers fly fishing?


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Post 28 Jul 2022, 17:08 • #15 
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that's a question for another thread....but it should be pointed out that an actual jig is a little different than several wraps of lead. Fortunately, it's not something that I'll ever lose sleep over.


Last edited by clarkman23 on 28 Jul 2022, 17:48, edited 1 time in total.

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Post 28 Jul 2022, 17:43 • #16 
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Freddie, that's a good explanation of what the layman's term "dissipates" means relative to a leader. I guess it is more precise to say the force of the cast dissipates and the timing of the process corresponds with straightening of the line, its forward taper, and then the leader, which almost uses up the remaining energy, little being required, as it straightens. Thus work is accomplished. I guess the precise terms in physics help, but the whole process is easy to see regardless of more casual layman's language. Usually you want just enough left that the fly is stopped and comes slightly back as an action-reaction to the remaining force that tries to send it forward but can't because all behind is straight ("bounces back," as you put it). That's what creates the wave in the leader. Of course the skill of the caster matters; with 'glass rods, momentum of the projectile (the line) is as important as acceleration. And of course the caster can adjust to the characteristics of the leaders. But for smooth, gradual dissipation of "energy" down the line to the leader, a well designed leader makes the whole process smoother, with less input from the caster across the comfortable distances the rod, line, and leader are set up for. This is easily observed by changing nothing but the leader and making the same cast with the same fly. An extra foot of soft mono in the middle of the leader will be immediately noticeable, too long and soft a tippet even more so. Of course the angler can compensate by holding his tongue a certain way, but a sloppy leader tells the angler what to adjust for smoothness and ease across the range of casts to be made that day. Make the adjustments and you don't have to think about it again, you have better control in fishing the fly, and you can concentrate on fishing, not casting.

Trev makes a great point as well. Diameter in leader forumulas, which usually assume one type of material is being used, are a simple way of assuring continuity in stiffness/limpness down the leader to the tippet. Jumping diameters more, assuming a knot that won't slip is used, can work just as well if the relative stiffness of sections is achieved by their length. You can judge that easily by feel and/or waving a finished leader around.


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Post 28 Jul 2022, 17:53 • #17 
Guide
Joined: 07/12/22
Posts: 207
You make lots of good points. Someone once explained it to me this way. If a leader does what people think it does, then a fly rod will not work. A fly rod and a leader are exactly the same things. Tapers. You put energy using your arm, wrist and body Into the butt which has a lot of mass and is moving slowly. This same force is transferred to the tip but in the form of less mass and more acceleration. This force is then transferred to the line as potential energy. At the very end of the backcast all the force is stored in the form of mass and there is no acceleration. This gets transferred back into the rod as it loads and then puts it back into the heavy but slower moving portion of the fly line. It than transforms into less mass and more acceleration. The taper assists in the smoother transition. It does not absorb the energy. It is actually lost due to gravity, friction and moving the air. But I will end, whatever works. The main reason for the taper is so you can get the line through the tiny eye on the fly.


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Post 28 Jul 2022, 18:07 • #18 
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Joined: 02/27/16
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When i started i used mixed brands of mono with some crappy results exactly as described in technical terms in this thread.At first i thought i was just having a bad casting day.I need to resupply as i am running out of cortland mono which is what i use as it is of the same basic hardness across the LB tests.I no longer use tippet smaller than 4lb but my fishing is different than most on here.My local tackle store stocked cortland camo and clear mono from 25 down to 2lb for years,.Great knot strength not to soft and not too brittle .I don't know if it is even made any more.


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Post 28 Jul 2022, 19:53 • #19 
Guide
Joined: 02/23/11
Posts: 237
Location: Tulsa, OK
This looks like a good thread to repost the George Harvey leader design:

https://troutbitten.com/2019/07/21/dry- ... er-design/

I usually tie up a bunch of these in winter and this blood knot tool helps speed things up when you have a few to work through:
https://www.madriveroutfitters.com/p-11 ... -tyer.aspx


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Post 28 Jul 2022, 20:02 • #20 
Guide
Joined: 07/12/22
Posts: 207
I actually did mean double nail knot. Very similar to a double uni. But technically the uni is a slip knot and the nail is something that is considered a “true byte” knot whatever that is, And theoretically stronger because the line goes through the coils twice vs once for the uni. But like I always say, as long as it doesn’t fail and catches fish, I works for me. I kinda like the way the coils jump off the tool and neatly grab the line and tighten up when doing a leader to fly line. The double nail knot gives you twice the fun, and I can do it after a couple of beers and shots of bourbon. I will make up a dozen in the evening, varying the dimensions ever so slightly to get different combinations and in the morning it doesn’t matter. Practice casting different rods, lines and leaders on a regular basis and you quickly adapt to whatever is in your hand. Sometimes I wish I had a fishing caddy, set up with 20 different rods, ready to go and handing them to me as needed. Make I should cut back on the bourbon. Lol.


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Post 28 Jul 2022, 21:09 • #21 
Sport
Joined: 09/14/20
Posts: 74
Location: Wisconsin
Thanks for the links SouthernRivers! I actually own the Dennison Blood Knot Tyer referenced in the 2nd link. It works great! So does a pencil. It and the Tie-Fast are the only knot tools I own. All things considered, the nail knot is named after the tool used to tie it, a nail. Not that you have to use a nail. Then it is a nail-less knot. I learned the nail knot a long time ago, using Cortland Dacron Musky line to make bobber stops for slip bobbering walleyes. However, I used a small tube instead of a nail to pass the line through, so I could slip the nail knot on to the line.

Trev... do you use the surgeon's loop for all of your loops? I've read that the perfection loop is good for larger diameter lines, and the surgeon's loop is better for smaller diameters.


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Post 28 Jul 2022, 23:08 • #22 
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Joined: 03/02/14
Posts: 144
Location: US-peripatetic
Drake,
I'm sorry you had a stroke, what a bummer.
I'd like to say, (most importantly, I think); great job-for not letting it stop you, and persevering doing what you love!


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Post 28 Jul 2022, 23:37 • #23 
Sport
Joined: 09/14/20
Posts: 74
Location: Wisconsin
Thanks oldriverman. It is what it is. You play with the cards you're dealt. I was very fortunate!! It could have been much worse. It happened a week before I really knew the cause of the symptoms I was having. I was struggling with allergies to tree pollen; took ibuprofen, Sudafed and Nasal Spray, all of which elevate blood pressure. My hand wasn't functioning well, which I thought was maybe the start of carpal tunnel. My balance was impaired, which I thought was due to an inner ear problem from being congested. I felt weak, which I attributed to being tired from taking the Sudafed and Ibuprofen. I thought I maybe had Covid, so did a video visit with a doctor, and she sent me to the ER. My BP was 200/100, a bit high, I would say. I had an MRI, and MUCH to my surprise, found out I'd had a stroke.

The reason I'm telling all of this is first off, don't take all of those drugs at once. I'd had kind of borderline high blood pressure, but was not on medication for it. Buy a blood pressure cuff (they are pretty inexpensive) and check it periodically. They call high blood pressure the silent killer. I just woke up one morning and had these symptoms. I'm just glad I woke up!!


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Post 29 Jul 2022, 07:42 • #24 
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Joined: 02/27/16
Posts: 2327
Location: US-IL
I love gadgets and have a couple of the tie fast tools but I am dyslexic and get jammed up sometimes on certain things.This tool is one of them.I forgot about using a straw to make bobber stops.Made 100s when I was a kid.My dad loved the slip bobber.
I too had a stroke on Good Friday of all days.Was at a fish fry and ran into aunts uncle's cousins and had a few too many Went home sat on couch was giggling but could not see out of right eye and right side felt weak but I was over served and woke up on couch .Coulb see ok but right side was stiff.Thought I slept wrong.EMT. SON and ICU nurse daughter finally convinced me to urgent care.I did not listen to my wife at all.Urgent care called ambulance after taking vitals Had surgery to unblock carotid.Could not even write my name 3 months ago.Could barely walk more than 100 feet I can now fish tie bugs drive I can walk a mile and started riding a bike for the first time in years. I feel like I won the mega lucky .


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Post 29 Jul 2022, 08:39 • #25 
Sport
Joined: 09/14/20
Posts: 74
Location: Wisconsin
I hear you The Hersh! I ordered a stamp for my signature. Don’t need it any more. Not much else matters if you don’t have your health!


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