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Re: Fly Line Mumbo-jumbo
Post 07 Dec 2021, 02:15 • #26 
Master Guide
Joined: 01/21/12
Posts: 462
Location: US-NY
Funny the dan craft ft was mentioned. I built an 8' 3wt FT and couldn't cast it with a 3 weight line. It cast ok with a 4 and better with a 5. I gave the rod away. I built that rod pushing 20 years ago and at the time I wasn't a very good caster. Next time I run into the buddy I gave that rod to I'll see how it casts with a 3 weight.


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Re: Fly Line Mumbo-jumbo
Post 07 Dec 2021, 05:49 • #27 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 06/24/11
Posts: 1148
Location: Belgium
Quote:
Ah, so you're alluding to something like a Commando shooting head, right? that's what it sounds like (to me). In which case, sure, they're great for beginners to learn sustained anchor casting techniques, but their utility isn't the same as a standard WFF line. It's all about sustained anchor casting (often employed with a two hander, but exceptionally fun with a single hander as well). All of that said, if by making it easier to employ such a technique for smaller trout sized fish for people who love that style of casting, then I guess you could call it a crutch. But, it takes a far higher level than "beginner" to become really proficient at it....hence my blanket statement comment.


No the specific experience I was recalling was of a line I found on a reel I bought off the Bay (a really nice Marquis 5WT) which I bought from the UK. No idea what the brand is.

The reel and the line looked unused and the line was spooled with insufficient backing and not properly set up so it is 95% sure that this line was sold to a beginner......who probably gave up fly fishing. But that's speculation.

I understand that you actually have a suitable application for this style of line. I myself bought a few Barrio SLX lines with a specific river in mind with high banks where I thought a spey cast and swing through the run might be a fun (if not particularly productive) technique. This is a river in Bavaria with big fish that take big flies where a 6wt is in order.

What I can tell you is that there are few situations here or in the UK where swinging small flies in trout streams (4WT) on the end of a shooting head is going to be an effective technique. You need a DT or longer WF so that you can mend and maintain a more or less dead drift if you are fishing small soft hackles that imitate emergers or nymphs. You might at some point want to retard downstream progress to simulate emergence but you don't want to quickly swim the flies towards the bank as happens on a classic swing at the end of a shooting head unless they are imitating minnows and/or inducing an aggressive response.

Aggressive line for aggressive fish :)


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Re: Fly Line Mumbo-jumbo
Post 07 Dec 2021, 06:58 • #28 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 06/21/06
Posts: 3082
Location: Orygun
novisor12 wrote:
Funny the dan craft ft was mentioned. I built an 8' 3wt FT and couldn't cast it with a 3 weight line. It cast ok with a 4 and better with a 5. I gave the rod away. I built that rod pushing 20 years ago and at the time I wasn't a very good caster. Next time I run into the buddy I gave that rod to I'll see how it casts with a 3 weight.


You won't feel the load much, but if your timing is down, it'll bomb. Then again lefty could cast a full fly line with just his hands, so I may be blowing smoke out my arse.... :rollin


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Re: Fly Line Mumbo-jumbo
Post 13 Dec 2021, 12:00 • #29 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19104
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
Fly line descriptions went to hades in a picnic basket last decade - the combination of clear tips, extreme tapers, oversize grain weights under-rated in AFTMA number.
You really have to study the line tapers to figure out what you're getting.
That said, I like the long front tapers on my para inshore rods, and found the short front taper and long back taper on Cortland Salt Guide to be the best possible line to get everything from CGR 7/8 (otherwise, the rod fishes well in close with any line).
But I evaluated that using my arsenal of Teeny lines, old Rocket tapers and newer long-front-taper Redfish line to work that out.


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Re: Fly Line Mumbo-jumbo
Post 13 Dec 2021, 12:43 • #30 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 06/21/06
Posts: 3082
Location: Orygun
lines are a funny thing....just like rods.


but yeah, totally agree, Ron, that descriptions of them are pretty ridiculous these days. Fortunately, for myself, I generally know exactly what type of taper and grain weight I'm after for much of my fishing.


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Re: Fly Line Mumbo-jumbo
Post 13 Dec 2021, 13:23 • #31 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 12/05/06
Posts: 2098
Location: US-PA
Modern fly lines are like "relaxed fit" jeans...

If you're fat, you can still tell folks you wear a size 32, even though in regular fit, you would be wearing a 36. ;)


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Re: Fly Line Mumbo-jumbo
Post 13 Dec 2021, 14:50 • #32 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 05/19/14
Posts: 3928
Location: USA - Illinois
I refer to my jeans as "bikini" cut - guess than makes me a hipster (sound of snare drum) and a bumpbumpbump

To keep this on the mumbo-jumbo, I'll use a short headed line when fishing for gills and bass - e.g., on an FF705, I like a Barrio Small Stream WF6F, and it makes no false cast shots super easy, This coming Spring I'm going to try a Rio Grand WF6F on it - that's a 7 weight shorty. Often I'll like my mumbo-jumbo pairings.


Last edited by jhuskey on 13 Dec 2021, 15:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Fly Line Mumbo-jumbo
Post 13 Dec 2021, 15:03 • #33 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 06/21/06
Posts: 3082
Location: Orygun
:lol :lol :lol


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Re: Fly Line Mumbo-jumbo
Post 13 Dec 2021, 21:38 • #34 
Guide
Joined: 04/26/19
Posts: 179
Location: L'Étoile du Nord
For me, I can cast a level or DT line single handed and a Scandinavian or long belly Spey Line further then weight forward lines.

Aggressive to me means turnover, I use commando heads on Short Spey rods and lighter full skagits on spey size rods, but for some reason for me, they don't cast easier, they cast differently, the rod acts differently and I cant say I cast "better" and its really how I need to fish.

What "aggressive" lines and heads do is allow me to cast a 10 or 15 foot sink tip and a weighted tube fly or cone head or intruder style fly a long way.

Dry fly fishing I like longer front and rear tapers and if I am using a WF rio gold or something its for smaller rivers and streams and I put 4' of tippet on a 9' tapered leader.

I don't think I`m some exceptional casting guy, but I've been casting since I was a little kid and in my experience and peer skill group I`m just average. Its all just different, I use different lines for fishing different situations, casting really doesn't enter the equation until its heavy and I really don't like casting heavy at all, I would rather go lighter, fish different flies and I like true to weight lines and getting it done lighter everyday of the week, but for salmon and steelhead that cant always happen due to the season and conditions.

The conditions and the fishing change my decisions on lines. leaders and flies, not casting.


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Re: Fly Line Mumbo-jumbo
Post 18 Dec 2021, 16:13 • #35 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 09/18/09
Posts: 5566
Location: Relocated to the Drought Stricken West.
My definition of aggressive isn't the length of the head, but that it is front loaded. The weight comes early in the head, so a very short front taper, to the widest part, and then tapering back (how long doesn't really matter) to the running line.

They are good for shooting, and turning over big flies. Not good for dry fly presentation and awful for roll casting.

The opposite would be a triangle taper where the front taper is 30ft. Great for presentation and roll casting, but can't turn over a heavy streamer worth beans.

My general feeling is if you are getting into aggressive fly lines, you might want to consider spinning gear.


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Re: Fly Line Mumbo-jumbo
Post 18 Dec 2021, 21:57 • #36 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 06/21/06
Posts: 3082
Location: Orygun
Why? The idea is to figure out the best way to present a fly with a fly rod (for me, that's part of the fun). If that requires a shooting head to turn over and easily fish a large fly, who cares? Oh wait, some do. If one felt like using a spinning rod, then they'll use a spinning rod. If one felt like using a fly rod, then they'll use a fly rod.

Now, let's talk about something less controversial like whether or not euro nymphing is actually fly fishing..... lol


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Re: Fly Line Mumbo-jumbo
Post 19 Dec 2021, 00:35 • #37 
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Joined: 09/18/09
Posts: 5566
Location: Relocated to the Drought Stricken West.
Clarkman,
Ok, if I was fishing for musky, chucking dead chickens, I would definitely use something that would turn over the fly and leader. But after half a day, I would probably switch to a spinning rod to save my shoulder.


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Re: Fly Line Mumbo-jumbo
Post 19 Dec 2021, 08:41 • #38 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 06/21/06
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Location: Orygun
Carlz, you'd be surprised at how easy most flies are easy to cast (at least the ones I tie up). Yeah, it's for turning over bulk, but a huge component is one rollcast to get some line out, one back cast, then shoot. That's really where they shine. You're fishing more and casting less (that really should be something to strive for in all of our fly fishing unless you've entered a fly casting competition). In sure I could fish just fine with a standard 10wt line but there's enough casting vs actual fishing to not make it worthwhile. Besides, I've yet to see any lure achieve that same specific action with the same types of materials as the flies that most people use. That's not really delving into the extra (perceived or not) challenge of fishing flies to them, which is something many folks enjoy about fly fishing in general. Anyway, I digress...


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Re: Fly Line Mumbo-jumbo
Post 19 Dec 2021, 13:04 • #39 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19104
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
What Randy's describing, roll-cast, back-cast, shoot is what requires tuning lines and rods.
You make most fly rods turn over most lines, but you can only make the cast above if rod taper, line taper, and grain weight are properly balanced.


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Re: Fly Line Mumbo-jumbo
Post 21 Dec 2021, 04:24 • #40 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 06/24/11
Posts: 1148
Location: Belgium
Quote:
What Randy's describing, roll-cast, back-cast, shoot is what requires tuning lines and rods.


True - if you disect that it really comes down to the roll casting element being the limiting factor. It's nice to have a balanced outfit for roll casting because there are limits to how much leeway you have to modifying the stroke to compensate for any given imbalance.


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Re: Fly Line Mumbo-jumbo
Post 21 Dec 2021, 20:30 • #41 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 09/18/09
Posts: 5566
Location: Relocated to the Drought Stricken West.
Clarkman,
I fish 1/8th oz leadhead marabou jigs or heavy, bullet head wooly buggers on a 6 or 7wt. And yes, getting the line to the surface is fine, but they sink rather fast, so you do need some mass to flip them out. When your line straightens out and then a second or two later your fly goes "ploink", it's time to consider a spinning rod. :)

I should fish sinking tips more, but when I'm on the water, I fish what I have. And these are the flies that a long front taper have a challenge flipping over.


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Re: Fly Line Mumbo-jumbo
Post 21 Dec 2021, 20:37 • #42 
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Joined: 08/10/05
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Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
that's probably the exact reason Randy and I both go to sinking lines with unweighted flies - the line will always turn them over.

I'm going to have to disagree with giogio about roll-cast always being the limiting factor - rod taper may roll cast a range of lines, but only properly shoot a narrow grain weight with a specific head taper (see CGR 7/8).


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Re: Fly Line Mumbo-jumbo
Post 21 Dec 2021, 22:21 • #43 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 06/21/06
Posts: 3082
Location: Orygun
Ron beat me to it. sinking line, unweighted fly (weight kills the action I'm after). easy peasy.


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Re: Fly Line Mumbo-jumbo
Post 21 Dec 2021, 23:59 • #44 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19104
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
There needs to be a book title, Fly Line Hinge for Dummies.

Heck, I have a baitcaster that will sail 2 g 130' - why would I use a fly rod for that?


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