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Soft hackles
Post 02 Dec 2021, 10:47 • #1 
Master Guide
Joined: 07/26/21
Posts: 383
Location: North West Georgia
All,
Ive been reading the backlog of topics on the fly tying forum and I have been surprised by just how many members proclaim soft hackles to be their preferred (or only practiced) method of fishing. I was also surprised to find many posts espousing the benefits of soft hackly flies that are significantly larger than the mayflies or caddis they may represent. Many people report excellent results swinging these flies (predictably, given the historical precedent).

my experience with soft hackles has been different. The flies I have typically tied and fished have been "flymph" style soft hackles in the 14-18 range, typically copper ribbed pheasant tails on dry fly hooks with a little dubbing tied loose, long and wispy at the thorax behind the soft hackle. I have never caught a fish on these flies swung, despite them being what I suspect are reasonable imitations of various mayflies. I have had success using them as dropper flies in a dry dropper rig, though not as good as a standard pheasant tail. I do however prefer them as a dropper in shallow water as they work fairly well and are unlikely to snag bottom. they normally stay in or near the surface film, so I guess you could argue Im really fishing them more like a dry or emerger than a swung fly or a nymph.

I now suspect that Ive been looking at soft hackles wrong. It seems many of the swung soft hackle enthusiast prefer flies on heavy size 6-8 nymph hooks (for a definitively subsurface presentation). I would not be surprised to hear that these flies work, but it does surprise me a bit to see people tying these "huge" flies to imitate naturals that might be less than a 10th the size in some cases. for instance, tying a size 6 soft hackle to imitate a sulphur where the naturals are size 16 is surprising to me. Is this all style, or is there an element of matching the hatch here? would one expect a size 6 "sulphur" soft hackle fished during a sulphur hatch to outperform the same fly in a size 14? what about the identical fly in size 6 but tied as a "blue wing olive" fished during the sulphur hatch? and the large "sulphur" vs the small "sulphur" during non hatch times? I guess Im just trying to understand the thought process behind these clearly effective flies. Is it perhaps that color, action and presentation are more important than large discrepancies in size? is this triggering a predatory/territorial response while simultaneously leveraging the colors and general form of the prevalent food form? and ofcourse, the central question "why do fish take swung flies, naturals dont do that" other than the lift at the end of the swing.

And presentation? other than upstream dead drift like fishing a nymph without an indicator, or the standard down and across swing, are there other common presentations that folks use often with these large soft hackles?

The ideal water? when I imagine ideal water for swinging soft hackles I imagine a stream 20-35ft wide, perhaps 1-2ft deep, no significant structure to break up the flow of the river beyond the bottom. I imagine downstream 45 degree casts, you know, just how everyone always says. In reality I mostly fish highly disrupted small streams with loads of structure, rocks, boulders, logs, overhead brush, and seldom anything resembling a consistent riffle or run more than 10ft long much less 5ft wide. Is there an application for larger soft hackles in these (often near hatchless) waters? Would these be downstream presentations?

Anyhow, I know that was a lot of questions. The flies sure are pretty and they work for so many people. Im just hoping to get in on the fun. Thanks! - John.


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Re: Soft hackles
Post 02 Dec 2021, 11:31 • #2 
Sport
Joined: 10/30/18
Posts: 75
Location: Gateway to Death Valley
Dave Hughes' book, Wet Flies 2nd Edition is the best source of compiled info on all things soft hackle IMO.
Goes into most every fishing strategy and the associated history along with patterns of course.

Me I fish smaller sizes (14 mostly) and try to fish them as a natural adrift in the current. Either fishing upstream, across or down but controlling the speed and placement of the swing.


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Re: Soft hackles
Post 02 Dec 2021, 11:55 • #3 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 04/20/07
Posts: 8920
Location: US-ME
Fish like motion. That is the key to soft hackles of many styles, from flymphs to bulky. Hook size and body dressing is used to control their "float," penetration, and depth. It sounds to me like you haven't been looking at them "wrong" at all. There are just more ways to look, and seeing them "all" isn't possible, whereas experimenting and trying variations is the"right" way to look. Any day astream offers the chance to fish one style in many ways, many styles in one way, or any combination. The conditions hour to hour will suggest the best combination.

You mention sulphur duns, typically a sporadic, short hatch. But the early stages subsurface have turned the fish on before the duns start floating by. If I had to pick one, it would be a sulphur bodied soft hackle, always floatable for one targeted rise, but fishable at any depth of current where fish will feed on sulphurs. BUT it is a lot of fun to use a specific dry pattern for the moments fish are feeding exclusively that way. It's a trade off. I've seen anglers completely miss a flurry of surface feeding so brief that it was over by the time they put on a dry. You can sit and anticipate, all rigged up, ready to cover a rise, You can split the difference with dries already tied to tippiets, ready to be looped on to a leader being fished with a soft hackle or other fly. That saves a minute or two when a fish shows. I used to do that and found that a relatively sparse soft hackle worked as well, even if not as picturesque as a static, perfect imitation. Fish like motion. A fly doesn't have to have upright wings for them to slaugher it. It is the body profile and flailing legs (wavy whisps of soft hackle and/or loose dubbing fibers) that they see, the more so if it is above them. The best way to experiement when time and duration of a hatch permits is discipline yourself to remove the fly that works and try another one. Fish it the same way at first, then differently. If you have a like-minded, observant partner, never fish the same fly the same way, but do fish the same water conditions. People often change from flies that "don't work" and the next one does, but often this is simply because the pool/glide/run has been rested. More reliable is to be catching fish regularly (the water doesn't need to be rested) and then change.


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Re: Soft hackles
Post 02 Dec 2021, 21:04 • #4 
Sport
Joined: 12/18/15
Posts: 95
Location: Annapolis, MD
My home river, the Gunpowder north of Baltimore for wild browns, is exactly as you describe. I fish pretty much nothing but soft hackles and wet flies in #12- 16 swung 45 degrees downstream, you can cover a ton of water this way. Simple flies, two short strands of flashabou or crystal flash for a tail, a dubbed body and extra long hackle, mostly tied unweighted on nymph or wet fly hooks. Four patterns, dark brown for early season, medium brown for spring/ early summer (the sulphur season) and ginger for summer through fall, usually #14's. Dead of winter is a #16 with grey body and a mottled red hackle. If I see a rising fish I'll target it with the same fly, swing it right in their face and more often than not can connect. If the current is screaming I'll fish the same patterns in a bead head. Takes are usually right under the surface film. 5X tippets, rod lengths from 5' to 8 1/2' all fish well because all you're doing is an occasional mend. Yeah, I've gone real basic in my old age, but it's a real pleasant way to fish and I'm catching as many fish as I ever have. I do carry larger sizes but #12 is about as large as I've had any success with, #14 is my norm. And +1 for Dave Hughes' book on wet flies.


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Re: Soft hackles
Post 02 Dec 2021, 23:22 • #5 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 06/09/05
Posts: 2524
Location: US-CO
I think success also depends on the behavior of the naturals in your waters. In Virginia, I found that the diving caddis who laid eggs while clinging to rocks beneath the surface of rushing waters frequently washed downstream where they were promptly picked off by waiting trout. A soft hackle that tumbled downstream in that manner brought an almost immediate strike.

In my current home waters in Colorado, I do not know if we have any diving caddis among the aquatic insect population here. Since moving west, I have never observed that remarkable behavior of a caddis that landed on a rock, then crawled into the water that was rushing by to lay eggs in the flow. Whenever I saw these plucky caddis doing that in Virginia, I always sat and watched for a while...truly amazing behavior.


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Re: Soft hackles
Post 03 Dec 2021, 01:05 • #6 
Guide
Joined: 04/04/13
Posts: 197
Location: Central Maryland
stuckeysflat wrote:
My home river, the Gunpowder north of Baltimore for wild browns, is exactly as you describe. I fish pretty much nothing but soft hackles and wet flies in #12- 16 swung 45 degrees downstream, you can cover a ton of water this way. Simple flies, two short strands of flashabou or crystal flash for a tail, a dubbed body and extra long hackle, mostly tied unweighted on nymph or wet fly hooks. Four patterns, dark brown for early season, medium brown for spring/ early summer (the sulphur season) and ginger for summer through fall, usually #14's. Dead of winter is a #16 with grey body and a mottled red hackle. If I see a rising fish I'll target it with the same fly, swing it right in their face and more often than not can connect. If the current is screaming I'll fish the same patterns in a bead head. Takes are usually right under the surface film. 5X tippets, rod lengths from 5' to 8 1/2' all fish well because all you're doing is an occasional mend. Yeah, I've gone real basic in my old age, but it's a real pleasant way to fish and I'm catching as many fish as I ever have. I do carry larger sizes but #12 is about as large as I've had any success with, #14 is my norm.


I fished (and caught) there just today with a team of soft hackles. I never fish larger than a size 14 there, and seldom that big in winter. (Size 18 was the ticket this afternoon.) I also never weight soft hackles, although in colder weather I might use an intermediate sink polyleader. I fish them 180 degrees, from straight upstream to straight down (not usually on the same cast.) They're quite versatile that way.

I fish the Gunpowder on average twice a week, and almost always with wets as described above. In the last 20 years, I've only been skunked doing so on three occasions (all in winter) and I hooked fish on each of those occasions. I don't think there is any better way to fish it.


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Re: Soft hackles
Post 03 Dec 2021, 08:09 • #7 
Sport
Joined: 08/26/19
Posts: 97
Location: US-MI
You guys have convinced me. I’m in.


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Re: Soft hackles
Post 03 Dec 2021, 09:15 • #8 
Master Guide
Joined: 07/26/21
Posts: 383
Location: North West Georgia
It sounds like Mr Hughes book will be appearing on the night stand right after I finish the current Gierach and Galloups first book. Fly fishing has kept me in good reading. Im Not sure Gierach's books have the rigor of some of the others but they do typically read well and I consistently enjoy them.

It seems that the majority of reply's here indicate that swinging flies that suggest the naturals in shape, color and approximate size is a good technique in many cases. Based on what Ive heard of the Gunpowder I will need to fish it one day. Wild trout water in the very southernmost tip of the Appalachians tends to be tight, high gradient and far from the road. perhaps my lack of success swinging flies has more to do with the place than the flies (to your comment Pave). I do have one creek in mind that holds a small population of Browns (and maybe some other stuff?). This creek is unusually wide, flat and straight for around here. Ill try swinging wets on it this spring, maybe about March brown season. Best I can tell, thats the first bug the trout around here really get excited for.

Whrlpool - you make an excellent point, I should work to answer the questions I posed in my first post through experimentation. maybe they will take a size 6 "sulphur". Only one way to find out, and your results may vary. the versatility to fish these flies on the surface, in the film or below does certainly make them extremely versatile. Im sure the profile and movements of the materials are central to the general success of these flies. Thanks for your detailed reply, its reminded me to think a little. Answering the questions is supposed to be fun.

Stuckeysflat - I hope I will eventually learn to be happy without making everything complicated. It sounds to me like you have it all figured out.

I guess I need to check in on my 14, 16, and 18 yellow and olive colored flymph pheasant tails as well as considering the merits of tying something more March brown sized and flavored. probably in a 10-12. BTW, I assume this is a March brown but would love an entomology lesson if its not. They are big, brown, and I see them in March and April. they leave a firm impression in the minds of trout that doesnt seem to fade until well into summer. Or perhaps the trout in these smaller creeks are just very accepting of size 10 dry flies in general. I often have great luck on size 10 royal Wulffs and a pheasant tail parachute in size 10 when these things are about.




Thanks for all of the replies so far!


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Re: Soft hackles
Post 03 Dec 2021, 10:08 • #9 
Guide
Joined: 12/16/15
Posts: 135
Location: MSP
Soft hackles are my favorite way to fish trout as well. If the river is big enough, I swing them down, starting a bit downstream of straight across. My local/ favorite river is basically a big spring creek so my soft hackles are small - I may have fished a 12 once, usually a sparse 14-16, not uncommonly 18s. I've had luck trailing a tiny 20 as well behind something a little showy. Thread, floss, flash (Krystal Flash, Flashabou, etc), or pheasant tail fibers make up the strong bulk of my fly bodies.

Now if you want to talk about taking the 7 weight over to the smallmouth river, that gets fun. Gray and dirty yellow Buggers make great Hex soft hackles, or black ones for leeches.


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Re: Soft hackles
Post 03 Dec 2021, 11:59 • #10 
Master Guide
Joined: 08/23/19
Posts: 371
Location: North Central Oregon
[quote="BrookieBoy"]It sounds like Mr Hughes book will be appearing on the night stand right after I finish the current Gierach and Galloups first book.



Have you read the soft hackle books by Sylvester Nemes? Plenty of good info and patterns.

I too fish soft hackles fairly regularly depending on the area and water I'm fishing and I've rarely had to use anything larger than a size 12. I also tie quite a few of my SH's on dry fly hooks and fish them upstream or down. I feel they make an excellent emerger or cripple pattern.

Bruce


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Re: Soft hackles
Post 03 Dec 2021, 13:52 • #11 
Guide
Joined: 08/11/21
Posts: 208
Location: Tucson, AZ
I am convinced, after swinging nymphs with my old Scott G-Series 8'8" 4 wt for trout (and assorted longer 3 wts), that glass rods should be good tools for this kind of fishing. I have not tried them yet for swinging soft hackles, but look forward to it.

The flexible tip of a slower graphite or glass rod will allow the feel of the strike to transmit down the rod..and it will definitely be harder to break a fish off on the strike. I enjoy feeling the strike while swinging flies, now to find a suitable lightweight rod for this.

Might have to search the newer 3 and 4 wt glass makers, as I only have one short (6'6") 4 wt right now.


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Re: Soft hackles
Post 03 Dec 2021, 16:54 • #12 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 08/14/06
Posts: 1227
Location: Panther City, Texas
I fish soft hackles most of the time. I like to use a braided 3' fluorocarbon leader and a 3' fluorocarbon tippet with a Teeny mini tip line and an unweighted fly. I usually start with a sz 10. This set up allows me to move the fly down and up using slack or by tightening the line. I enjoy moving the fly and having an of idea where it is and at least the illusion of control. I've spent a lot of time drifting nymphs with an indicator and I just dont like fishing that way. I also like fishing streamers and I'll cast a dry to rising fish but if I'm prospecting it's soft hackles or streamers.


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Re: Soft hackles
Post 03 Dec 2021, 20:55 • #13 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 02/06/07
Posts: 1437
Location: US-VT
The best way to catch fish on soft hackles is to fish in water where there are fish.


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Re: Soft hackles
Post 03 Dec 2021, 22:35 • #14 
Master Guide
Joined: 05/08/06
Posts: 796
Location: RenoNV/FranklinWV
Tabor - I agree, I've caught zillions of fish, not just trout on Wet Flies, Soft Hackles, Flymphs and Stewart Spyders, pretty easy peasy too.
I fish them upstream, across, across and down and 45 degrees and across depending on the water, I've caught a fair share on the dangle too, not just dinkers either.
I tie mine on light wire hooks and heavy Mustad hooks depending on the water.
My favorite sizes are 12-16 with 18's in the winter, if they're dimpling the surface I've generally got em.
In the winter, Stewart Spyders are my fav.


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Re: Soft hackles
Post 04 Dec 2021, 00:09 • #15 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 11/06/17
Posts: 2498
Location: South of Joplin
I believe a soft hackle fished up and/or across sunken and dead drifted is a nymph, the same fly fished almost dry on a greased leader is an emerger and those should approximate some local insect, but that same fly swung as a wet becomes a tiny fish and should behave as one. I have never been convinced that any fly fished down and across and allowed to swing across current on a taut line could in any way be an insect, I've always considered all the wet flies as small streamers, to be fished as minnows. The palmered family of flies are similar in my mind and represent different types of food if presented in a different manner. I think this is what makes these flies so universally productive, they don't look like any single thing so could be anything else, maybe even food, movement looks like life.


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Re: Soft hackles
Post 04 Dec 2021, 08:48 • #16 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 04/20/07
Posts: 8920
Location: US-ME
Great point. A soft hackle is what a fish wants to see at a certain position with a certain behavior. That can be any small swimming insect or insect life stage, time of day and progress of a hatch being important in the case of insects. Very generally, let's say in a riffle, glide, pool, glide, tailing out V, nymphs in the top half, emergers in the middle, dries midway down, spent wings at the tail. Fish it the appropriate way at each position, or each way through all positions. If soft hackles are tied sparse or trimmed astream, they can be fished in all of these ways without a change of fly. It takes only one good float to catch a surface feeding fish. And remember, in most cases, for every live insect observed taken as an emerger, many many more or being taken subsurface. The dries are table scraps. The feast is subsurface.


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Re: Soft hackles
Post 04 Dec 2021, 09:20 • #17 
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Joined: 12/05/06
Posts: 2086
Location: US-PA
In regards to subsurface offerings...

For quite a long time I have been fashioning some of my soft hackles, including some well known patterns like a Snipe & Purple and the infamous Partridge & Orange with a body made completely of wire. Wapsi Ultra Wire comes in quite a few colors and sizes and I also use beading wire from craft shops for the colors of Ultra Wire I can't find, like a true purple. However, the Ultra Wire in the color "wine" is close and comes in a smaller diameter than craft wire. I use the "amber" color Ultra Wire for my Partridge & Orange.

I also make a Partridge & Chartreuse from chartreuse wire that really seems to be the ticket at times, especially on stockers as well as a Partridge & White that is effective as it resembles a shuck-less caddis pupa, a grub or other white things fish grab.

You can also make segmented flies by using two different colors with touching wraps. I do an amber & green and an amber & brown which work great.

I like the tiny bit of additional flash the wire offers in addition to the added weight that gets it down but not necessarily all the way down. I also use it make bodies on TINY midge pupa which are deadly where I fish (especially in red, copper, green/amber or all amber) and I make "sinking" Tricos with all black or all white wire abdomens when the fish get fussy and I need a different look.

The used and options for wire bodies are endless...

Try some wire, you might find discover a new favorite soft hackle pattern!!


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Re: Soft hackles
Post 05 Dec 2021, 17:01 • #18 
Sport
Joined: 03/11/14
Posts: 89
Location: US-East Texas
Not to get too far off topic.., does anyone know of a book or mag that identifies flies, both wet and dry, with good quality color photos? Maybe even a spiral bound, since we're at it. A lot of guys have no clue, like myself, when all these names of flies are being tossed around. Easy enough to Google them, but My PC is not always with me.


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Re: Soft hackles
Post 05 Dec 2021, 20:02 • #19 
Administrator
Joined: 01/10/06
Posts: 7811
Location: Holly Springs, NC
When old pattern names come up, the first book that comes to mind is J. Edson Leonard's Flies (1960 or a later edition). It's not a compendium of images, but there are 2200 flies described in the tables. The recipes are brief, but there is enough information to tie a good enough fly.

Maybe more what you are thinking is the Index of Orvis Fly Patterns (1978). The index is a small three hole notebook with pages of fly photos and their materials (poor image below). The Index will lay flat on the tying bench. No batteries required.

There are many examples of both books on eBay.


Tom



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Re: Soft hackles
Post 05 Dec 2021, 20:38 • #20 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 06/11/05
Posts: 1008
Location: US-NY
gmrpeabody wrote:
Not to get too far off topic.., does anyone know of a book or mag that identifies flies, both wet and dry, with good quality color photos? Maybe even a spiral bound, since we're at it. A lot of guys have no clue, like myself, when all these names of flies are being tossed around. Easy enough to Google them, but My PC is not always with me.


There´s a Cauchy-Nastasi book - “Instant Mayfly Identification Guide”. It’s a small spiral-bound book that you can take to the stream. It uses a sort of flowchart approach to helping you identify mayflies.


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Re: Soft hackles
Post 06 Dec 2021, 07:28 • #21 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 12/05/06
Posts: 2086
Location: US-PA
gmrpeabody wrote:
Not to get too far off topic.., does anyone know of a book or mag that identifies flies, both wet and dry, with good quality color photos? Maybe even a spiral bound, since we're at it. A lot of guys have no clue, like myself, when all these names of flies are being tossed around. Easy enough to Google them, but My PC is not always with me.

gmrpeabody:

While not an absolute, there are books with pictures of FLIES with recipes on how to tie the flies and there are books with pictures of BUGS to help you to identify the bug, along with suggested patterns to imitate them. As suggested by Tom, "Flies" by J. Edson Leonard or the Orvis book are the former while the Caucci & Nastasi, "Instant Mayfly Identification Guide" suggested by Gaddis is the latter.

First decide what type of book is most important to you, keeping in mind you probably won't find any of the names you heard me throw around (Partridge & Orange or Snipe & Purple) in any of those books. If you want both types of information, you will probably need a couple of books or get some scissors, buy some sheet protectors and make your own binders. That is what I did as a kid WITHOUT the Internet to help. ;)

In addition to the excellent suggestions given previously, on the former side there is the classic "Trout" by Ray Bergman, a great read with wonderful color plates showing many old wet fly patterns. The infamous “The Soft-Hackled Fly Addict.” By Sylvester Nemes and “The Art of Tying the Wet Fly and Fishing the Flymph” by Vernon S. Leisenring & James E. Hidy are other great books on soft hackle info & patterns.

On the latter side, there is “Hatches” or “Hatches II” by Al Caucci & Bob Nastasi, Art Flick's “New Streamside Guide to Naturals and Their Imitations” and the monumental “Nymphs” by Ernest Schweibert.

Keep in mind a couple of things regarding the bug books, many use genus & species classifications that are geographically specific and have been or get changed as entomologists discover new things and many of the old books are heavily geared to the hatches & insects on the east coast, especially the northeast where many of the authors lived & fished.

However, fish don’t speak Latin and the generic names for flies & even bugs are pretty consistent across the country.

Have fun & good luck!


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Re: Soft hackles
Post 06 Dec 2021, 09:00 • #22 
Guide
Joined: 04/04/13
Posts: 197
Location: Central Maryland
if you're talking strictly about soft hackles/north country spiders, the two standard references are North Country Flies by T.E. Pritt and Brook and River Trouting by Edmonds and Lee.


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Re: Soft hackles
Post 06 Dec 2021, 10:23 • #23 
Master Guide
Joined: 07/26/21
Posts: 383
Location: North West Georgia
As always, quite a few of you have posted some really excellent information. Ill be adding a variety of soft hackle type flies to my winter tying list. Ill also focus in on some pheasant tail based flymphs for mayfly imitations, some kind of big march brown, and maybe even some of the old standby patterns. I guess Ill be filling up another small fly box. The problem is that my curiosity is greater than my willingness to carry around more fly boxes.

Bamboozle - Ive always thought wire bodies (especially with alternating colors) were really pretty so Im sure Ill give that a shot . I tie brassies in a few sizes and a few different colors of wire but always with a peacock herl thorax for lightweight yet fast sinking droppers. They often seem to seal the deal especially on small stream rainbows. perhaps wire would be good for sinking ant patterns which were another thing that came up more than once in the backlog of fly tying topics.

Trev/Whrlpool - Excellent points, and this kind of conjecture is one of the things I was digging for in my initial post. I think part of what I was missing was the versatility of presentations and what all a soft hackle may imitate depending on when and how its fished. Thanks!

Paramount 51 - I havent but it sounds like I need to. Thanks!


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Re: Soft hackles
Post 06 Dec 2021, 12:00 • #24 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 12/05/06
Posts: 2086
Location: US-PA
BrookieBoy:

Not to get too far OT, but wire for sinking ants is OK, but you can never get a nice smooth looking body UNLESS you coat it with something like head cement, epoxy or UV stuff which is a pain and takes time.

I much prefer lashing two balls from a piece of black metal bead chain, black plastic bead chain (both available at craft shops), replacement plastic bead CORD used for widow shades, (available from Amazon & other places) or using the smallest size of Wapsi Mono Eyes. These are much easier to use and you can crank out a dozen ants in 20 minutes or less.

Obviously they all sink at different rates, but after some experimentation, you can tweak that with a few wraps of wire at the thorax if needed.

Good luck


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Re: Soft hackles
Post 06 Dec 2021, 12:06 • #25 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 11/06/17
Posts: 2498
Location: South of Joplin
All the books suggested are good references, and I own most of them, but, the Hughes book mentioned, that I just got a few months ago, is the one I recommend as "best".
The wire bodies suggested by Bamboozle are excellent, so is just a very thin thread or floss body, or painted hook. In my opinion many of the soft hackle flies I see on the internet are both obese and over dressed. 8-10 barbs around the hook may be better than 20 or 50. I've had a number of flies that I made a half turn too many when wrapping the hackle that would not get a hit until I clipped off some of the barbs, it seems to happen often with starling for me. I've also overdressed a few to the point that they refused to sink, those got the razor blade.


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