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Underlining
Post 27 Nov 2021, 17:43 • #1 
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Joined: 03/30/21
Posts: 14
Location: Lost in the African Bush
Hi all,

A while back, I read a review of the epic bandit where the author mentioned that the rod could satisfactorily cast a 6wt line. Then more recently, I read a comment by a member- can't remember who- saying that they regularly use heavier glassrods for smaller trout and stream fishing.

I was wondering if this is a common occurrence? Is it typical for "medium bore" (8-10wt) glass rods to be able to load such light lines as well as their normally designated grain lines?

TIA!


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Re: Underlining
Post 27 Nov 2021, 19:34 • #2 
Guide
Joined: 08/11/21
Posts: 208
Location: Tucson, AZ
I should allow more knowledgable vintage tackle guys weigh in first...but just want to get in how I feel about how fiberglass rods perform on small streams: the flexible tips allow the rods to load up closer than their graphite composite counterparts. Sometimes you want to throw just the leader on a little creek, and they can do that.

8-10 wts sound pretty radical for small streams to me...but fiberglass rods tend to cast a lines a bit lighter than what was recommended back in the day. (Meaning the 50's, 60's and earlier.) Modern lines have more radical tapers, are fatter and are mostly designed to shoot line with a minimum of falsecasting.

One of my casting/fishing mentors by the name of Tom White, who was on the Governing Board of FFF, explained it in kind of radical terms: while casting a 6 weight flyline, rated by the AFFTA with a range of 152-160 grains/the first 30 feet of the line...that assumes you are casting exactly 30 feet of line. What happens when you cast 60 feet? You are, in effect, casting somewhere between and 10 and 11 weight in the number of grains in the air.

What happens is the rod flexes more into the butt section: we use more of the rod for longer distances.

Conversely, if you have 15' of line out to fish up close..you must cast basically a 3 wt. flyline with a 6 wt rod. Glass rods excel at using only the tip for a shorter cast.

How do we, as fishers, deal with this? We change the arc of our cast: longer stroke for more line out, shorter and choppier timing for shorter distances. We also "tip the plane" of our casting strokes...higher, shorter back casts for in close, lower, longer backcasts to tip up the plane for distance casting

What many of us like about the "slower" action rods is the tip flexibility that gives us control and feel and short distance..like on a small stream.


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Re: Underlining
Post 27 Nov 2021, 22:38 • #3 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 06/09/05
Posts: 2524
Location: US-CO
I routinely use a 6 wt Fenwick FF-79 (8 ft, 6 wt) on small streams when I am fishing above timberline because the wind is frequently blowing at those altitudes and a lighter weight rod and line may not perform as well in the wind. But, I do fish it with the 6 wt line that matches the rod's design weight.

These pictures show that 8 ft 6 wt Fenwick in use on a stream barely a foot wide that holds some nice cutthroat trout using a bow and arrow cast to drop the fly in the right spot.





While I am sure that I could use a heavier rod to cast a 6 wt line, I really don't see any advantage of doing that. Some people with a lot of graphite experience are more comfortable underlining glass rods which makes the casting feel more like what they are used to. I am the opposite, because I tend to fish a short line (see Phil-a-flex's desciption above) I may overline my glass rods to gain the benefit of their slower action despite the fact that I do not have 30' of line beyond the tip top.

But, I have never seen anyone use a long and heavy rod with a very light line.


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Re: Underlining
Post 28 Nov 2021, 07:43 • #4 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 06/21/06
Posts: 3080
Location: Orygun
I know I've made that comment multiple times here and elsewhere just to showcase the versatility (same with nearly all glass rods). Would I want to use my Bandit all day as a 6wt? not really....but it can do it rather easily. More often than not, I've overlining it because of the size of flies I throw at moderate distance (under 75' typically).

I can't remember the other guy who commented frequently on that as well...someone from Australia....Hirdy, maybe?

Like Paveglass though, I use my Steffen 5/6 on all sorts of water that many would throw lighter weights on but I do it for its versatility and to deal with any wind (easier) that pops up frequently. I still get that bendo we all like while being more versatile on the water.


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Re: Underlining
Post 28 Nov 2021, 08:21 • #5 
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Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19077
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
Specifically about under-lining, and nothing about Epic Bandit.
Just about every mid-weight, progressive venerable e-glass rod will underline 2 or more line weights.
Every one I own will shoot a 100-gr sinking head perfectly.
Many venerable 6-wt rods become better dry fly rods with a 4-wt line.
It's essentially a question of how much of the rod length do you need load to fish inside 50'


Last edited by bulldog1935 on 28 Nov 2021, 16:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Underlining
Post 28 Nov 2021, 16:17 • #6 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 03/30/09
Posts: 1525
Location: Hamilton,Ontario,Canada
I used to fish with someone that used a 4 wt. line on a 6 wt. rod but it didnt cast well at all.


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Re: Underlining
Post 28 Nov 2021, 16:25 • #7 
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Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19077
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
This one, rated 6/7, is a remarkable dry fly rod with a DT3

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Re: Underlining
Post 28 Nov 2021, 16:29 • #8 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 11/06/17
Posts: 2498
Location: South of Joplin
With a 9' leader every rod is underlined out to the 38' mark and overlined past that point. But because there is no accepted way of measuring a rod, the line number on a rod is not a designation, it is a recommendation.


Last edited by Trev on 04 Dec 2021, 00:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Underlining
Post 28 Nov 2021, 16:52 • #9 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19077
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
there has been a tendency since FR&R rod reviews praised Fast to under-rate rods, so that a graphite rod marked 6-wt from the 80s or so is really a 7-wt.

The Water Witch is marked 6/7 - that's what it takes to load it into the butt.
If you notice good cane dry fly rods, they have flared butts, which kills the taper before the rod can load there .
The butt is not needed to cast a dry fly 50', but to fight big fish.

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Re: Underlining
Post 29 Nov 2021, 03:46 • #10 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 06/24/11
Posts: 1144
Location: Belgium
Bulldog explains it very well.

The only thing I would like to elaborate on is that you have to decide if you are going to choose your line for optimal casting or for optimal fishing. With clear, low water, when fish are particularly spooky I might want to underline to reduce the impact on the water. When fishing small nymphs or soft hackles, I might want to underline to improve sensitivity on takes.

Conversely when fishing large flies you might want to overline to improve presentation.

One last note going back to casting - when fishing heavily wooded streams I like to be able to cast super accurate narrow loops especially on the back cast. Underlining will help achieve that. But that's my personal approach, if you are going to prefer to roll cast for most of your presentations you might like to overline.

Finally I would not want to fish a small stream with a ten weight or even an eight weight. I might fish it with a 7'6" glass rod that can cast anything from a 3 wt to 7wt. If I was casting small dries or nymphs I would likely use a 3wt line especially if casting room was tight, If I was flogging large streamers I might go to a 6 or 7 weight. The rod would actually cast most comfortably (on grass) with a 5wt.


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Re: Underlining
Post 29 Nov 2021, 08:14 • #11 
Guide
Joined: 06/07/15
Posts: 162
Location: US-PA
I tend to think of the numeric line designation on the rod and line as a starting point. The weight of the line outside of the rod tip changes as the length of that line increases/decreases so the rod is actually casting "varying" line weights throughout the fishing day, and i think rods are designed to cast that way with an optimal line weight range. so 10' or 50' of #6 line bends a rod differently. I choose a line for a rod based on the typical fishing distance in which i use that rod and what line will give me the "feel" i want at that fishing distance. The other day I used a #7 line on a #5 rod fishing inside of 20' and it worked great.

I think a grain weight range designation on rods and a grain weight for 30' of line might be a better standard than current numeric line weights. that way you could pick a true line weight or mass that bends the rod the way it was designed to bend or the way you like it to bend.

Anyone still use the CCS system?


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Re: Underlining
Post 29 Nov 2021, 08:34 • #12 
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Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19077
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
Fishing at 20', the 7-wt line is only casting half the head grain weight (even less if it's a DT line).
That's the same idea as the quick-load of a rocket taper line, and gives the ability to turn over heavier flies.

giogio's descriptions are very good.

The other thing about under-lining the progressive e-glass rod is that it speed up the mid, where all dry fly casts are made.
It gives the rod that quick, crisp dry-fly feel, and tight fast loops to wring-out your fly.


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Re: Underlining
Post 29 Nov 2021, 13:14 • #13 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 04/20/07
Posts: 8920
Location: US-ME
Most glass rods have multi-line capability, some, like the classic Sceptre series, designed with that in mind, but many more because of the self-loading capability of the heavier blank. Personally, regardless of the size of the water, I would pick the line weight by the size of the flies to be used predominantly. Working back from the fly, then come the conditions and presentation needs. That determines the leader design and line weight combination. Then to conditions again, the length of the rod. I wouldn't hedge more than one line weight up or down from that, knowing that one or the other would work OK with the same rod if my initial judgment were off. But I would touch up the leader before changing line weights.

Stray up or down more than a one line weight and you may get outside the rod's best line handling and fish landing capability. Good idea to think about the fishing potential, not just castability. They may not match very well. Glass rods are pretty shock absorbent, but setting a 22 hook with a 7 weight will take more finesse than with a 4 weight. Same for landing the fish. Just one more thing to consider in deciding how to best use the multi-line weight capability.

Here's a good previous discussion. Although about a specific model, it applies to most midweights. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=65602&p=345617&hilit=FF79#p345617


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