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Post 24 Nov 2021, 00:55 • #1 
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Joined: 08/14/21
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In the past I’ve always used a loop to loop connecting fly line to leader/tippet but that frequently creates a large “bump” in my line at the connection point that is difficult to pass thru rod tip etc. Sometimes when using long leaders, I have to pull this connection thru the first few guides when netting a fish and it creates a problem. As a result, I’ve started to cut off the fly line loop, then nail knot a piece of 3”-4” mono to the fly line and finish with a small perfection loop. This method seems to give a smaller/compact loop to loop connection. What do you guys use on 3 & 4 wt rigs?


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Post 24 Nov 2021, 01:19 • #2 
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Joined: 01/10/06
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Location: Holly Springs, NC
I cut off the big fused loop and attach monofilament via a superglue splice. For details, see viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2294


Tom

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Post 24 Nov 2021, 01:45 • #3 
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Joined: 12/11/07
Posts: 573
Location: Driftless Area & Great Lakes Tribs
For everything 4wt and below, I use the knotless knot. You cut off the loop off a flyline, then put about 1" of the end of the flyline in nail polish remover. Let it sit for about 5 minutes. Then strip off the vinyl coating of the flyline leaving just the braided core. Then cut the end of your butt section at an angle and run it up the braided core of the flyline to about 1". Then generously Superglue (or Crazy Glue, waterproof glue) the connection. Let it dry straight, then test the connection.

Good Luck!

Here's a You-Tube video showing a different way to stip off the flyline vinyl coating: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zaDTdglqQOg


Last edited by BHSpey on 24 Nov 2021, 13:27, edited 2 times in total.

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Post 24 Nov 2021, 08:36 • #4 
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Location: US-PA
Is your leader loop going around the sides of the line loop and compressing it, (a "handshake") or is it ending up at the bottom of the line loop as more of a "cow hitch?" Even if you are doing the loop to loop properly, you have to check it from time to time to make sure it hasn't slipped down and become a cow hitch.

I ask because I use loop to loop connections on everything down to 2 weights with no more hang ups than I get from nail knots or blood knots in my butt sections.

If you are using mono leaders, sometimes the Perfection Loop knot is more of a problem than the loop in the fly line. I sometimes coat those with UV Knot Sense.


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Post 24 Nov 2021, 09:53 • #5 
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Joined: 03/28/07
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Location: US-TX
I used to do the super glue splice, but it failed too many times for me. I learned it directly from Joe Robinson. So, I know I was doing it right.

I switched to a needle knot through the 1st 1/2” of the fly line core. It’s almost as slick as the splice and doesn’t fail.


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Post 24 Nov 2021, 10:10 • #6 
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Joined: 08/10/05
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Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
Zap splice won't work in salt water, because salt residue expands and breaks the joint.

But you can bottom-bounce it across rocks in fresh water.

Image

These joints can last me over 10 years.

Borrowed the reel, just because it had temporary room for this line, but only my salty Teeny lines, I use needle-nail knot,
sacrifice a trout leader, and tie a perfection loop in the butt.
From there I loop on 4' Teeny leaders plus fluoro, or my own mackerel leaders using 3' of Mason butt and 3' of wire
Image

Image


Last edited by bulldog1935 on 25 Nov 2021, 07:24, edited 3 times in total.

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Post 24 Nov 2021, 10:17 • #7 
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Joined: 11/06/17
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Location: South of Joplin
I prefer to use either a nail knot or an Albright knot coated with something like Pliobond or UV goo, or braided butt leaders that slip over the fly-line.

However, I have used hoop to loop and probably will again, and I suspect bambozzle has it right in that your loop to loop is a "cow hitch" and thus holding the fly-line open. The "handshake" half knot is always wanting to become a completed "cow hitch" (or as I learned it a "lark's head").
Instead of a "cow hitch"/"handshake"/"lark's head", make the loop to loop a "double cat's paw" - pass the fly-line loop through the leader-butt loop, then pass the tippet end through the fly-line loop (you now have the standard "cow hitch/handshake knot) then before drawing the knot tight, pass the tippet end through the two loops so that the connection is doubled and as it is drawn up the two sides of the loops look twisted as in the cat's paw knot. When formed correctly this will squeeze the loops rather than hold them open.
I found an illustration here- https://www.pinterest.com.au/pin/439523244867425056/and here- https://diamondfishing.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/CatsPaw.png although they aren't with fly-line.


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Post 24 Nov 2021, 10:56 • #8 
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The "double cat's paw" looks interesting but how easy is it to execute and undo?

I ask because I use mostly Sci Angler lines which have a smaller loop than Rio lines and some real silk lines from Terenzio with REALLY small loops, not to mention furled leaders & silk blend leaders (also from Terenzio) with tiny loops as well. I can't imagine being able to execute or get a double cats paw undone with my lines & leaders.

I have always used a singe handshake or loop to loop knot, mainly because I change leaders often and I never really had a problem with them. However, they can slip down into a cow hitch or larks head if you don't "seat" them correctly or after going through the guides a bunch of times.

I found this photo that shows the right & wrong way to do it:



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Post 24 Nov 2021, 11:02 • #9 
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Joined: 06/21/06
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Location: Orygun
I leave mine on & do what Bamboozle does. I've never felt it has been a hindrance in any way unless it gets seated wrong as shown above.


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Post 24 Nov 2021, 11:28 • #10 
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Joined: 11/06/17
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Location: South of Joplin
When I was using loops they home made and pretty small, smaller I think than most factory loops, I never had any forming the cat's paw trouble in them, it does take about a second longer to pass the tippet end through a second time.
Because it distributes the force over more area, it doesn't seem to get as tight as the handshake, so at least for me it was easier to "undo". I think it less prone to cut into soft coatings too.
But, as I said I usually use a solid coated knot and I cut and modify my leaders rather than change them, a butt section might stay in place for a year or three, so the loop thing is a "used to do" thing and as always the mileage may vary with driving habits.
For visualization, we might think of it as a "double handshake knot" as that is what happens.


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Post 24 Nov 2021, 13:25 • #11 
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Joined: 06/24/11
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Location: Belgium
I do needle knots for trout fishing. If changing leaders is necessary then perfection loop on mono needle knotted to fly line and perfection loop on butt of leader.


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Post 24 Nov 2021, 15:17 • #12 
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Joined: 11/06/17
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Location: South of Joplin
The perfection loop wants to stand open because that's the way it's constructed, if I'm using loops I'm more apt to to tie a longer skinnier loop with a triple overhand knot in the mono, those seem to lay tighter together for me, passing through guides more readily. they also don't seem to creep into a cow hitch once formed to the handshake.
I might coat the overhand knot.


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Post 24 Nov 2021, 16:55 • #13 
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Joined: 08/10/05
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Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
Bamboozle wrote:
The "double cat's paw" looks interesting but how easy is it to execute and undo?

I ask because I use mostly Sci Angler lines which have a smaller loop than Rio lines and some real silk lines from Terenzio with REALLY small loops, not to mention furled leaders & silk blend leaders (also from Terenzio) with tiny loops as well. I can't imagine being able to execute or get a double cats paw undone with my lines & leaders.

I have always used a singe handshake or loop to loop knot, mainly because I change leaders often and I never really had a problem with them. However, they can slip down into a cow hitch or larks head if you don't "seat" them correctly or after going through the guides a bunch of times.

I found this photo that shows the right & wrong way to do it:



I fish these on just about everything. I have loops in my fly line butt and backing to swap lines between reels.
When I use an Otter's Milking egg + thread midge dropper, I use a quilting needle to put the Otter's egg on my leader end and slide up a bare hook - the whole thing bump-stops on my dropper tippet surgeon's knot.
Image
The fish is on the bare hook, the otter's egg slid up to my split shot, and you can see the midge dropper at bottom center.
When I finish the day, I'll cut above my split shot, put surgeon's loop in each end, fold the complex rig into a leader wallet, and loop it on later.

On all my braid spinning and baitcast reels, I tie improved Allbright to high-grade fluoro leader (YGK V12).
I put a perfection loop in the business end of my leader, and loop on lure-swap paper clip, cigar cork for rig, or micro-swivel titanium-wire trace (Euro pike leader).
The loop connection is stronger than any single-bend knot, and really easy to swap rigs.
That's a 1" surgeon's loop (long enough for a cigar cork) in 10-lb Seaguar Blue, titanium leader on the right.
Image

This may help with scale - I always use swivels with spinning tackle (and expensive threadline braid)
Image

A couple of things, the micro-trace pike leaders are light enough weight to tie to the end of your fly leader.

Titanium wire is the ultimate leader material for resilience, ductility, toughness and shock resistance.
It won't tie a bimini twist, but will tie a clinch knot.


Last edited by bulldog1935 on 25 Nov 2021, 07:34, edited 2 times in total.

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Post 24 Nov 2021, 21:01 • #14 
Guide
Joined: 05/13/20
Posts: 250
Location: Lake Junaluska, NC
Txmiller, I use the same thing you do, the nail knot and perfection loop. From bluegill to steelhead, so far I've not had a problem with the connection. I've tried other connections, and most of them are fine, I just have confidence in this one. I'd say use what works for you that you like.


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Post 24 Nov 2021, 22:17 • #15 
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Joined: 03/30/09
Posts: 1525
Location: Hamilton,Ontario,Canada
Im getting old enough that I use whatever Ive got .If I need to tie a nail knot or perfection loop,so be it. :)


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Post 24 Nov 2021, 23:36 • #16 
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Joined: 01/26/07
Posts: 1385
Location: Ada, Oklahoma
When using a fly line with a loop on the end I use the loop to loop connection. But if using a fly line without a loop, in the past I used to whip finish in a new loop. That was more work than I really wanted to do, being innately lazy. I use furled leaders with a Shorb loop, and I use the "Castwell" knot to connect the fly line to the leader loop. This knot has also been known as the Lap knot or the weavers bend. It forms a tiny knot which easily slips through the tip top and guides. Most people looking at the knot as it is tied will say that it will never work and will slip. I have never had one come loose. The tippet will always break first.

Larry


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Post 25 Nov 2021, 08:01 • #17 
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Joined: 08/10/05
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Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
adding a very OT ps for our OP

On floating fly lines without welded loops, I use Beartooth Braided Spliced Loops.
The whole Chinese finger-lock braid thing takes some patience to slide and work up your fly line tip.
They come with heat shrink, but better is to whip them in place.


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Post 25 Nov 2021, 10:32 • #18 
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Joined: 12/05/06
Posts: 2087
Location: US-PA
Speaking of leader loops:

Obviously, everyone has different experiences with different products, but the ONLY issue I ever had with braided leader loops is the loop popping open. If you ever made yourself them from braided mono you know that esentially, the same finger torture grip is what keeps the loop together.

After those failures when I have to use leader loops, I work a little UV knot sense into the junction at the bottom of the loop so it can’t ever come apart.

Another thing I do is work the fly line ALL the way up that joint which makes for less hinging, but you knew that already. ;) I also have found that snipping off a fraction of the end of the line at an angle makes working it all the way up to the bottom of the loop a lot easier than if it is cut off straight.

I use the Rio loops that come with a short length of stretchy plastic tubing that just slides tightly over the spot where the end of the leader loop meets the fly line. However, if someone is inclined to use shrink tubing, buy one of these or a reasonable facsimile. They work like a charm and there is less risk of damaging the coating on your fly line.

Totally OT but speaking of Beartooth, if you haven’t used them, Beartooth Permafloat Braided Butt leaders are an excellent product with fantastic turnover. They are all I used for years.

Happy Thanksgiving Ron, and everybody else!!


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Post 25 Nov 2021, 10:46 • #19 
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Joined: 08/10/05
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Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
Beartooth braided butt leaders are all I use for nymphing - with the butt charged with Mucilin, don't need another strike indicator.
Another reason for loop to loop, for dries I'll switch leaders to tapered mono with no tippet.

You can wring water from the braided butt with a small piece of chamois,
and the braided butt buoyancy keeps your fly line tip from swamping.


Last edited by bulldog1935 on 25 Nov 2021, 18:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Post 25 Nov 2021, 10:52 • #20 
Master Guide
Joined: 01/21/12
Posts: 462
Location: US-NY
I always cut off loops and nail knot the leader directly to the fly line (no loops anywherea). My leaders are all knotted (blood knots) and I tie them myself.

I like this because I can cast the connection through my guides. When I used to use loop to loop I had to pull the connection through the tip top before I began casting.

It's really just a matter of personal preference.


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Post 25 Nov 2021, 11:03 • #21 
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Joined: 04/20/07
Posts: 8920
Location: US-ME
Delicacy slightly favors the nail knot, splice, or sleeve. Loop to loop can still be pretty delicate depending on the rest of the leader design, and works great for all around utility or quick changes. The One True Correct and Only Answer is in this previous discussion. Somewhere. viewtopic.php?f=32&t=17881&hilit=Leader+tweaking


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Post 25 Nov 2021, 16:08 • #22 
Sport
Joined: 12/15/17
Posts: 59
Location: SW Idaho
I don't care for loop to loop anywhere in my fly line/leader. I do like the way I learned when I started fly fishing. Nail knot the leader to the fly line! I know loop to loop is easier to change the leader out, but I haven't found myself needing to do that, just the tippet portion of the leader.
Different strokes.


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Post 25 Nov 2021, 16:57 • #23 
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Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19078
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
I'd say there's an advantage to never having learned and an open mind to find what works best.
I was always polite to Joe Robinson, and let him teach me dubbing loop at the vise one day.
But when I give a fly fishing talk, always describe myself as "the tough to mentor type"

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