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Post 01 Apr 2019, 18:10 • #26 
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"you" I was actually addressing the OP.

This next you is just 2nd person prose - you can even learn to modulate with your line hand, addressing a mistake you just made with the rod hand.
Example is a punch - you can actually give line to the rod so the punch won't turn into a tailing loop.


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Post 01 Apr 2019, 18:10 • #27 
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Joined: 02/27/16
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Location: US-IL
bulldog1935 wrote:
and I can cast an entire DT line with 8-1/2' South Bend cane.
When you're dealing with a long flexing rod, the flex of the rod gives you more arc - slow down everything you're trying to do with your arm, and learn when to add line speed with your line hand. Just trying a clean sheet of paper is going to make you look for the feel you need.

I think i have subconsciously taught my self to do this.Since i mainly fish still water i animate the fly any way and my left hand only leaves the line when i release the line.I always haul forward and yes i feel the rod load with my hand.I always thought i would feel it in the rod only.I use the high back cast on my short 5 and 6 wts for a longer cast and where the plants are high behind me throwing bass bugs .Crazy how slow those bugs are to turn over and a strong haul forward and they sail 50 feet.


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Post 01 Apr 2019, 18:35 • #28 
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this is exactly correct - using all your available senses so the rod and line are both telling you how and when you need to react.
"Double haul" is condemned as a trick, but naturally modulated haul is a part of Breathing with any rod. You should always feel the weight of the line in your line hand, except when line is being fed out.
The rote motion in your rod arm should be following the lead that feel in your line hand is giving.

I was talking about addressing back cast earlier - that's how I get the greatest distance casting into the wind - watching my back-cast to make sure it's flawless and fine tune the timing on my forward acceleration. The back cast becomes the primary part of the cast and where all my attention goes until i have the line speed to shoot forward.


Last edited by bulldog1935 on 02 Apr 2019, 07:30, edited 4 times in total.

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Post 01 Apr 2019, 18:39 • #29 
Master Guide
Joined: 09/21/13
Posts: 704
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Look up "The 5 Essentials". If a person completely understands the implications arising from them, they can sort out their own casting issues.

Cheers,
Graeme


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Post 01 Apr 2019, 19:02 • #30 
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Joined: 01/26/13
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Location: US-PA
Have someone video your casting.


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Post 01 Apr 2019, 19:42 • #31 
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the outsider wrote:
Have someone video your casting.

I believe someone did that and posted the video on FFR and was able to get some pointers .Makes sense as we can never really see ourselves cast in real time.


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Post 01 Apr 2019, 20:43 • #32 
Sport
Joined: 05/03/16
Posts: 30
Location: Southeastern NC
The technical answer of you’re question and concern about your casting has been well stated here already. The only thing I can add is.....Don’t overthink it, and practice more and the problem will be intuitively corrected most likely.


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Post 01 Apr 2019, 21:16 • #33 
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Joined: 12/21/17
Posts: 100
Location: US-MN
If the Vision Graphite works better then sell the Epic. You shoudnt have to struggle with it especially since your not a beginner fly fisherman and know how to cast and fish. I am sure you could sell or trade the Epic for something you want.


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Post 01 Apr 2019, 22:00 • #34 
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Kalgrm wrote:
Look up "The 5 Essentials". If a person completely understands the implications arising from them, they can sort out their own casting issues.


Graeme, you're advise is like a saying from a mystic guru. I've been studying the 5 essentials for years and I don't completely understand them.


I prefer the Simon & Garfunkel approach "Slow down, you move to fast" ;)


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Post 01 Apr 2019, 22:12 • #35 
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Location: Perth, Western Australia
Ah, sorry Carlz. I didn't realise there were mysteries in them. Send me an email if you like(button at the lower left of the frame); I'll be happy to talk you through them.

Cheers,
Graeme


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Post 02 Apr 2019, 04:40 • #36 
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Joined: 06/24/11
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I'll disagree with the idea that one should just stick to the rod that instinctively feels right (for casting) and sell the others. Understanding the principles of casting and mastering a few relatively simple concepts, one can competently and effectively cast just about any rod comfortably. This gives one the freedom to use the rod best suited to the fishing at hand while very much enjoying it at the same time. I just think that's a better place to be.

My assumption is that if you fly fish you almost certainly enjoy casting. If you enjoy it then there's little reason for not practicing it sufficiently so as to become proficient - to the point where adapting to rod actions requires very little effort.


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Post 02 Apr 2019, 05:56 • #37 
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Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
There's no question good habits translate between all rods. What you learn on the slowest glass and cane is rewarded on the fastest graphite.
Some rods are too forgiving of your bad habits, and every now and then it's good to fish a temperamental rod that makes you see your recent bad habits and work them out.


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Post 02 Apr 2019, 06:04 • #38 
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Joined: 12/05/06
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Location: US-PA
easternffer:

No solutions but some encouragement; when I bought my first glass rod, a modern very slow 3wt Winston Retro and couldn't cast it much beyond 20 feet, I literally said to myself, "I just wasted $400."

Some perseverance and adjustments in my casting was all it took to figure it out.

Stick it out and you'll solve your problems.


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Post 02 Apr 2019, 07:50 • #39 
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I reread this and I don't really get the arc/arc angle bit, don't think an arc is part of the casting stroke but that may be a misunderstanding on my part as a self taught fly fisher. Or it may be my idea of what an arc is.
The 'mystery" of the "5 essentials" is that there are a multitude of them, many websites giving different descriptions/definitions of them. It becomes which 5 and in what order? Although all will probably lead to batter casting.

I've been casting badly for over forty years and likely will continue to, simply because overhead casting has so little application to fishing.
I used the fly rod for several years before ever using a back cast except on grass while learning the basics from Joe Brooks book. I have used overhead/side arm casting in probably 2% of my fishing in all those years of fishing exclusivly with a fly rod and those were for practice as much as for need to. There are simply very few places in fresh water use a long back cast unless in a boat or on a dock/pier.

Advice given by giogio, bulldog1935, whirpool, and to some extent the others that I have used and that helped until the next time I forgot them are, in random order, start gently, don't force, don't apply power too early, slow down, you move too fast- I blame this to some extent on my frequent use of the rollcast in a dynamic non-stop stroke, it needs some power through out the changes of direction, while the overhead (or as more commonly seen the side arm) cast requires a pause/stop/coffee break in between the change of directions.
These lines in particular apply to my overhead casting:
"What's fundamentally wrong with your casting stroke is getting ahead of the rod. "
" Don't rush your timing between back cast and front cast."
"Don't impose a "casting stroke.""
"address and accurately aim my back-cast,"
"you're starting your forward cast too soon "

And most particular of all:
"the tip collapses because he pushes the rod too hard, it doesn't matter how far you arc it - might even make it worse because of trying even harder to get there. "
With some rods it can look like it has a hinge in it.

Turning my upper body and watching the line straighten while feeling with the line hand tells me there is a small time lag between my eyes seeing the line go straight and my line hand felling the tug of loading. This also lets me watch the rod and adjust the feel of the rod to the degree of bend- with practice I can find the maximum push-power that can be used before the rod collapses.

I think really that only by constant use will the motions become learned to the point that I could do them with out thought. With thought and practice my cast improves rapidly, but months later with no use it will deteriorate to the point that each move requires deliberation again.
"Stick it out and you'll solve your problems." seems like good advice also.


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Post 02 Apr 2019, 08:48 • #40 
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I don't usually care for Zen-like or hyper technical fly fishing sources, but this one is neither, and if it's the "5 essentials," mentioned, it's pretty square to the discussion and might help the OP. For us trying to help, I think we're all saying about the same thing, even on the "arc" which I think of as the progressive powered motion of the rod hand. It's got key points about slack between the line hand and guide, and the tip and water, not gathered in before pick-up because of a rod angled too high. The old way of saying this uses a clockface, 9 to 12 or 1, possibly drifting back for the pause. If the "arc" is, let's say, 10:30 to 12:00, the cast is likely starting with slack, and there isn't enough distance in it to allow the gradual application of power everyone has mentioned. In comments about "haul" above, simple, short tensioning motions of the line hand are meant at some points, as opposed to vigorous, hauls that can be used for extra distance. I know I automatically slip-shoot line on a backcast to adjust its length, and then "haul"--just a re-tensioning motion--going into the forecast. https://thelimpcobra.com/2012/11/27/fly ... ruction-2/


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Post 02 Apr 2019, 09:05 • #41 
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Too many cooks indeed... read The Cast by Ed Jaworowski. He breaks down casting in terms of physics and you can read it/internalize it on your own.

You may want to close your eyes when you're practicing so you can feel your load points better.


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Post 02 Apr 2019, 09:47 • #42 
Master Guide
Joined: 09/21/13
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Location: Perth, Western Australia
... or just go and see a certified instructor and ignore everything you read here. That's the best way to shorten the learning curve.

Cheers,
Graeme


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Post 02 Apr 2019, 10:35 • #43 
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Kalgrm wrote:
... or just go and see a certified instructor and ignore everything you read here. That's the best way to shorten the learning curve.

Cheers,
Graeme

There isn't one in every town, in fact I've only ever met one in my life and he was so obnoxious that I couldn't stand to be around him. I'm fairly certain that had I taken instruction from him neither of us would have gained.


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Post 02 Apr 2019, 10:42 • #44 
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Kalgrm wrote:
... or just go and see a certified instructor and ignore everything you read here. That's the best way to shorten the learning curve.

Cheers,
Graeme


finally....some common sense.

Seriously though, trying to diagnose your casting stroke off of an internet forum is a little like just going to WebMD for all of your medical needs....just a lot less dangerous.


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Post 02 Apr 2019, 12:03 • #45 
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of course people were doing this for 100 years before casting instruction (at local pro shop) ever became certified - turning casting into a visual exercise will never help fishing in the dark.

nor does tailing loops require an MD, but maybe a JD around here.


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Post 02 Apr 2019, 12:06 • #46 
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bulldog1935 wrote:

nor does tailing loops require an MD, but maybe a JD around here.


ok, that was funny....


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Post 02 Apr 2019, 15:56 • #47 
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WelI, I get it about the too many cooks. But I think a buffet is being served, as opposed to one gumbo with too much in it. I think a lot of what has been covered is saying the same thing--just in a different way. There are a few good ways to do it, but lots of good ways to describe it--one of those ways will work for the OP. Ask a question like this on a forum and I figure it is expected that multiple answers, some conflicting or seeming that way, will be given. It's understood that you select from the buffet. I see this all the time in wingshooting instruction. One person gets it, let's say on a falling target, if somebody says "three-feet under." That is meaningless to another shooter. So somebody else says "get two target widths below it." Still no luck. So somebody else says, "try to miss it underneath." And they smash the target and keep right on doing it. All of this phrasing is describing a way of achieving the requisite mechanical lead, which can be calculated. People perceive and execute it with different mental/visual hand-eye connections. A good instructor, finds the communication method that works for that shooter. Same in any hand-eye sport. We can't get immediate feedback on the forum to find what makes sense and works for any one individual asking about casting. The one who asks needs to sort it out instead. This could mean completely ignoring one point here and ingraining another--even though to someone else, the two points are identical. It's the best we can do and, honestly, in some cases it will be as good or better than an instructor, some of whom can be too one-dimensional in their explanations--explanations that work great for most of their customers but don't connect with others. That's not a knock on instructors; it's just normal in hand-eye coaching. The points that have always appealed to me, as in The Art of Racing in the Rain, is the need to "go slow to go fast." Somebody had a great version of that above.

Let's hope we hear more from the OP as to whether we confused him more or he found the right items on the buffet.


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Post 02 Apr 2019, 16:28 • #48 
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Dear easternffer,

I have the same problem...always have...probably always will. Like you I cast pretty well at shorter distances and justify my hesitance to cast very far with my glass rods as a reasonable approach to preventing the dreaded "micro-drag" across currents or around obstacles in my presentation.

Tailing loops seem to happen when I try to "oomph" the cast after a slightly longer final back cast...but normally those slightly longer back casts get hung up in a tree behind me, reducing the frequency of my tailing loops. This is one possible solution to your problem and I'd be happy to show you how I do that so well.

Not that an over-faired, long-haired, leaping gnome couldn't cast a whole DT line if I tried...but...

My ultimate solution has been to use my exceptional wading skill to preclude the need for my exceptional casting skill.


Last edited by paveglass on 02 Apr 2019, 16:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Post 02 Apr 2019, 16:33 • #49 
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It takes very small kitchen to have too many cooks.


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Post 02 Apr 2019, 18:15 • #50 
Master Guide
Joined: 09/21/13
Posts: 704
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Trev wrote:
There isn't one in every town, in fact I've only ever met one in my life ...

I get that Trev. There were none on my side of the continent when I started fly fishing. But when one passed through offering a group lesson, I grabbed that chance with both hands. At that point, things started to work for me. So if there is one within a 4 hour drive, phone him/her up and have a chat. If you get on, go for a drive.

I didn't want others to have to go through that self-taught frustration, so I learnt to be an instructor. It is not what I do for a living, but I see enough of these problems to know how to fix them when I'm standing with that person.

Cheers,
Graeme


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