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Post 23 Mar 2019, 12:14 • #1 
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The topic about Rio Gold fly line has got me thinking about what makes a fly line most versatile for casting decent size weighted wooly buggers in high flow water to crayfish patterns to tiny dries in clear low water conditions. Would a short front taper fly line like a Rio Gold of 5.5 foot lay down a dry fly just as delicately like a fly line with a longer front taper of 8 ft if the leader was extended a foot or 2 longer?

What is the purpose of a very long level line tip with welded loop? I thought the purpose of the level line is to be able to trim back without changing the taper when using a nail knot to tie on the leader. The Cortland Spring Creek has a 4 foot level line tip which seams awefully long. 406 has close to 2 foot, many others have 1/2 ft and Cortland 444 peach and Triangle Taper has none at least to what their website shows.

Many folks say the Wulff Triangle Taper is best line for roll casting, why is not made in double taper?


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Post 23 Mar 2019, 13:14 • #2 
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Shortening or lengthening a leader can solve more casting problems or presentation issues than a line taper.

Big flies, short stout leader. Delicacy; longer, finer.

I never liked long front taper lines because they require having too much line out past the tip top to get to the belly and that can be an issue on small water when a 20 foot cast is long.

If I think I need "super delicacy," I fish a longer leader and slow down my presentation forward cast, stop it above the water a lay it down gently.

I routinely fish midges on 7 & 6wts and that is heresy in today's 2 - 3wt world.


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Post 23 Mar 2019, 15:28 • #3 
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Quote:
Shortening or lengthening a leader can solve more casting problems or presentation issues than a line taper....
I routinely fish midges on 7 & 6wts and that is heresy in today's 2 - 3wt world.

Lots of truth right there.
When I started flying in the '70s, it was with an 8 1/2' 9wt and the old guys said use an AirCell DTF but cut off almost all the level section at the front of the taper ~3' iirc. WE all fished #16-#24 in still ponds for trout and used a dynamic sort of roll cast. -still clear spring fed ponds for trout.
We also used those very same rigs in the Bay for casting streamers to salty stripers, blues and such and in the Palmer River for American Shad when the run came. I now use 7&8wts in Ozarks creeks for SMB and the spring branches for trout with flies from #20-#2.

This is my thinking, ymmv.
Double taper was/is to give twice the wear factor with a particular line. Not so much a factor with plastic lines as it was with silk, I think, some of my lines are likely twenty years old, maybe more.
Weight forward/shooting heads/most lines today shift most of the weight to the front end of the line so that the cast is more like throwing a large sinker, most of the line is shot- whereas the level line (as versatile as any taper-maybe more so) and the DT require the casting of long sections of line, keeping almost the entire cast length in the air.
Triangle taper with it's small running line would almost need to be twice as long to accommodate another head at the other end, this also applies to WF lines, you can think of TT as a very long head WF, it beats WF at roll casting or mending because the head is as long as most of us cast.
Level line is all casting/mending line end to end, DT takes the L and reduces the diameter so that leaders can start with smaller diameter material and thus be shorter. Both these can be roll cast or mended end to end because the weight is distributed over the entire length.
When shooting was developed as a cast it was a piece of heavy line coupled with a small running line- think 10-12wt 20-30' long tied to 20# casting line, a shooting head. This morphed into WF and all the other pseudo tapers that are WF by another name that we have today. None of these lines can be roll cast or mended past the length of the head, simply because the running line is too small and too soft to do so-it can't move the head because it is of lesser mass.
My two cents is that weight not taper makes versatility with 7-8 wts being an ideal compromise for most fly fishing. Then Level being the most useful taper for medium and large flies, DT being more a compromise to small flies as it adds control to the transition of energy from line to leader and all the varieties of WF being the best for distance casting/throwing because of the shorter line held in the air as the false casting is done.


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Post 23 Mar 2019, 16:53 • #4 
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Bamboozle wrote:
Shortening or lengthening a leader can solve more casting problems or presentation issues than a line taper.

Big flies, short stout leader. Delicacy; longer, finer.

I never liked long front taper lines because they require having too much line out past the tip top to get to the belly and that can be an issue on small water when a 20 foot cast is long.

If I think I need "super delicacy," I fish a longer leader and slow down my presentation forward cast, stop it above the water a lay it down gently.

I routinely fish midges on 7 & 6wts and that is heresy in today's 2 - 3wt world.


I completely agree. As long as you have a line that loads the rod as intended, most casting issues are due to leader length, not line taper. Biggest mistake I see others make is casting large streamers with a long leader. I think the trend of all the heavy agressive WF lines is because these can actually be cast with a rod that's not being properly loaded. They are much easier to cast to a new angler who just purchased 9' 5wt that is actually a 7 or 8 weight rod.


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Post 23 Mar 2019, 18:17 • #5 
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A taper from the body of the line continued to a long level tip just adds options in leader design. It can be trimmed back to the taper--SA used to advise trimming the short level section that continued from the front taper. As for the welded loop, who knows. If a fine taper and/or level tip is supposed to promote delicacy, the loop is kind of an affront to that theory. Regardless, if a line's front section(with or without a loop) doesn't lay out as you like with the leader style you like, cut it back closer to the end of the taper.

A heavy line weight will lay out a leader and "lay down" a dry fly just as delicately as any other line. The line itself, though, doesn't land as delicately. So leader design and length compensates, but surface and current conditions, depth, and so on may favor a lighter line. In some conditions, narrow feeding lanes are quite well isolated from a fly line by a relatively short leader, so its delicacy is less important.

The best compromise all arounder if certain relatively large flies will be used, with a chance of small dries, is a seven weight. If small flies are more likely than relatively large ones, a 6 weight. Realize that delicacy is not the only consideration. Too much rod may be able to present tiny flies well, but will take a delicate hand for hook-ups without breakoffs. Too little rod will present larger flies adequately but may compromise solid hook sets.


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Post 24 Mar 2019, 09:27 • #6 
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I have had trouble finding level lines in the last few years but they work well with short heavy leaders for throwing heavier stuff, and it works well in moving water for Crawdad patterns and the like.

This setup also worked well for me when throwing unweighted plastic worms for Bowfin in the slow rivers of South Florida.

Don’t let one of those toothy dino-fish fall inside the kayak, however.


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Post 24 Mar 2019, 20:06 • #7 
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Thanks for all of your info about fly line versatility. Sounds like the front taper is important but the line weight is too.


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Post 24 Mar 2019, 21:08 • #8 
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Bamboozle wrote:
Shortening or lengthening a leader can solve more casting problems or presentation issues than a line taper.

Big flies, short stout leader. Delicacy; longer, finer.

I never liked long front taper lines because they require having too much line out past the tip top to get to the belly and that can be an issue on small water when a 20 foot cast is long.

If I think I need "super delicacy," I fish a longer leader and slow down my presentation forward cast, stop it above the water a lay it down gently.

I routinely fish midges on 7 & 6wts and that is heresy in today's 2 - 3wt world.


Have to agree with just about all of this. Something to keep in mind, most designed tapers were designed to be versatile on fast graphite.
When you apply them to cane and glass, which is already probably a soft progressive taper, most of those designs are defeated.
A good progressive taper glass or cane rod should accurately cast the leader alone - try that with your graphite rod.
Much of that design is over-weighting the front belly of the line by as much as 2 or 3 line weights over the marking on the box, and having the effect of slowing down the fast graphite -- something you don't need on your glass and cane.

Perfect example, took my Rio Redfish taper to progressive glass rods, and it didn't work. It has a 20' front taper followed by a 6' belly and 10' long back taper to running line.
The progressive rods were wonderful with the long front taper, but wouldn't load to shoot the rest of the line more than 10 or 15 feet past the belly.
Conversely, the line both fishes close extremely well, and shoots through the length of running line on my RPLX7 and my Izch S-glass para 6/7, both rocketship rods.
This is exactly a line designed for versatility, but it doesn't work on glass for anything other than fishing close - a progressive glass taper can't shoot it.

I did find the right saltwater line for my glass in Cortland Saltwater Guide, a line designed to shoot right now with any portion of the belly out of the rod.
As far as the fishing close part, the progressive glass takes care of that.


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Post 25 Mar 2019, 05:34 • #9 
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There's a lot more to presentation than the tradeoff between payload potential and delicate landing of the fly. There's the really important issue of being able to execute slack line casts and curves and at distance or not. There's also the potential need for very narrow loops to fit through tight spaces. Finally there is the question of style and personal preference.

As stated above the right combinations of line weight choice and leader design will go a long way to solving any problem.

The most versatile lines for river fly fishing are DTs with an average front taper (long belly WFs like the SA Expert distance are a viable alternative) . Buy them in increasing weights from 3 to 7 and matched with a few leader designs you have the potential for a lot of different styles and presentations. If you have them in a progression of weights it becomes very easy to underline or overline without having to deal with the supplemental effects of different tapers. Best of all these lines are honest - they will not flatter nor will they render the execution of some casts almost impossible. For river fishing they will also potentially keep you better connected to the fly during the drift.

Most of the specialty tapers are really integrated heads (somewhat improved by tapered running lines - hence the "back taper"). Very convenient for salt water and distance but mostly not ideal for putting down the line in a curve. In any event they tend to be designed to make a particular type of presentation easier at the expense of versatility. This isn't to say there isn't a place for them but perhaps not so much on the river as the marketing guys would like you to believe.


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Post 25 Mar 2019, 06:47 • #10 
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Pick a good basic line WF, DT or L (or Teeny T-series for a sinking shooting head), properly match your leader to the fishing,
The versatility should already be built into the glass rod.

The trick is finding the good basic line. What they're doing with fly lines today is really weird, and is all about marketing - it's what they did with rods beginning c. 2000 when the movie fad economy collapsed on them - there must be a way to sell N+1.
(Come to think of it, that's also when they began giving strange names to fly lines and f'n with the tapers)
It's hard to figure out what most of the named lines represent without a thorough analysis of the taper, and especially including grain weights

I think all our old friends are throwing us away, SA, Cortland, etc. They're making their product nebulous for the next generation of educated boron-X euro-nymphing cloistered gear geeks to mull over product literature in hours of internet isolation.
The rest of us, who'd rather be outside doing something fun, may be forced to buy Monic and 406 because we don't want to spend the effort in the marketing maze.


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Post 25 Mar 2019, 06:56 • #11 
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How many of those new&improved tapers are the same old lines with complex labels?


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Post 25 Mar 2019, 07:02 • #12 
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those are the ones we want to find to fish on glass and cane, unfortunately, this is what they're making:
Image


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Post 25 Mar 2019, 07:14 • #13 
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Looks like some king of antitank round.


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Post 25 Mar 2019, 07:28 • #14 
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I bought the line on MRFC closeout when I needed a floating SW line. I took to it on my RPLX and Issac
Using a basic 333 Salt Rocket on the Fisher 8-wt, and they're a nicely matched pair for speed of stealth presentation - and of course Fisher = progressive taper.
Image
here's the long chore of figuring out how to line the CGR 7/8 for salt kayak fishing
viewtopic.php?p=336396#p336396
And I ended up giving this reel to the CGR 7/8 and the new line I found for it.

Come to think of it, the more complicated they make fly lines, the more we'll have to lean on our local fly shops for a recommendation.
That's great if you have a LFS you trust.
The worry is when we get handed over to a box store 20-something for a recommendation.


Last edited by bulldog1935 on 25 Mar 2019, 08:58, edited 2 times in total.

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Post 25 Mar 2019, 07:33 • #15 
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How are Salt lines different from fresh water lines? I used to use the same for both.


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Post 25 Mar 2019, 07:45 • #16 
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They can be smaller diameter because of buoyancy difference, often harder thinner coatings for the heat. They're going to be more like bass lines because of turning over larger flies.
Trout lines and especially leaders ought to be something completely different because you're often presenting size 16/18/24
(unless you're euro nymphing with 8g of tungsten)


Last edited by bulldog1935 on 25 Mar 2019, 07:46, edited 2 times in total.

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Post 25 Mar 2019, 07:45 • #17 
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Sounds like they'd suit me fine for most fresh water, I think some of these coatings are a bit soft.


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Post 25 Mar 2019, 07:57 • #18 
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Coatings for hod/cold aren't as difficult as they were in the old days - they've worked out better and more versatile polymers on most new lines, but the buoyancy difference and big flies still apply. Some people also like to fish X-long leaders in the salt - I've never found the need for that, and on my salt floating lines prefer mono nylon furled leaders with added fluoro tippet.


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Post 26 Mar 2019, 14:29 • #19 
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giogio wrote:
The most versatile lines for river fly fishing are DTs with an average front taper (long belly WFs like the SA Expert distance are a viable alternative) .


+1 to the whole post, but this is the nut of it..

with a good glass/cane rod, DT is the single most versatile line.
I've been trying a Cortland Sylk DT6, which both presents #24 midges lightly, and can happily sling a #8 conehead bugger..
otherwise like a 444, or the Hook&Hackle DT.

I've been reading Roderick Haig-Brown and he describes compound-taper weight forward lines made in silk, even before nylon lines. He detested them for fishing ;-)
Roughly paraphrased, said that these were one-trick ponies, good for shooting a lot of line quickly in tournament casting, but not much use for fishing. Fishing requires line management on the water, more kinds of casts than the simple overhead sling, and more things that just distance quickly. It's not changed since then IMO.


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Post 28 Mar 2019, 05:51 • #20 
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I'm taking a DT line fishing today, and no question, it's always the choice to fish when shooting line is not involved, simply because of those long roll casts and maybe improved distance-mending.
But if you're doing it right, in most situations, you're not going to notice the difference between a DT and WF line.
The best dry fly rod I own will not cast past 50', though it's effortless to get that 50'.
What situations do you need to aerialize (or mend) 60' of fly line, v. shoot to 80'
And honestly, since the DT can't shoot line, which line is actually the one trick pony - rhetorical question.


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Post 28 Mar 2019, 06:34 • #21 
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People can poo poo the idea of new and complex tapers all they want...in the meantime, I'll happily get back to throwing my SA Titan 3D (triple density) lines designed for throwing very large flies with ease while easily fishing very specific depths with certain types of retrieves. Sure, for general trout use, a good old DT might work just fine (if you're good with just "fine"), sometimes folks want something that performs better than "fine". Plus, there's no way in hell I'm using something like that for trying to turn over large and bulky flies and sinking them to a very specific depth (while maintaining the specific action in my flies that I want). Would an old antiquated line work fine? Sure, it would work, but I demand something that works the best for it's intended purpose.

Have things gotten a little out if hand? Sure, a little (like the Redfish taper shown above which might be similar to a bonefish taper and an all rounder taper. I do hate it when companies use what is basically the same taper and slap different packaging on it), but there's still advances in technology to a point where it makes things easier. Even with modern glass makers, they're working out new tapers and new resins to make rods perform better.

I'd venture to guess that no one on here is still using an old Commadore 64 and dial-up to access this site. I mean hell, I'm typing this on my phone.

Cheers!


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Post 28 Mar 2019, 08:23 • #22 
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short/medium WF taper on 5wt rod will serve in most of cases - casting small/lightweight streamers and nymphs, terrestrials, hopper-dropper rigs, and dry fly as well.

delicate dry fly presentation is not about thin or thick taper. you can achieve soft landing with any fly line, using slackline presentation casts , ex. parachute cast


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Post 28 Mar 2019, 08:31 • #23 
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bulldog1935 wrote:
Have to agree with just about all of this. Something to keep in mind, most designed tapers were designed to be versatile on fast graphite.


Tim Rajeff do not recommend "presentation" lines (with long and thin front taper) for glass rods in general. Instead, he recommends standard WF taper (not super-thin)

something like this shape pictured here. i think it's the most versatile taper.

Image


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Post 28 Mar 2019, 11:22 • #24 
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How can any WF design be versatile past the head length? I can't get the running line to roll the head over to mend or rollcast, is that just me?
Does Rajeff's recommendation come from fishing or just over head casting viewpoint?


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Post 28 Mar 2019, 11:56 • #25 
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Trev wrote:
How can any WF design be versatile past the head length? I can't get the running line to roll the head over to mend or rollcast, is that just me?


I’m with you. Some of my most memorable fish from big rivers have come from long downstream drifts that I was able to maintain because I could get mends to keep the the fly basically drag-free in the right portion of the current.


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