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Epoxy problems
Post 29 May 2018, 09:54 • #1 
Sport
Joined: 04/27/18
Posts: 28
Location: France, Normandy
I put a second coat of roddancer threadmaster epoxy on my guide whippings this morning and the finish is horrible. I don't know what it's called in English but the epoxy seems to have stuck in places and not others, so I have peaks and troughs in the finish.

How do I fix this please?


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Re: Epoxy problems
Post 29 May 2018, 10:03 • #2 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 01/02/12
Posts: 1859
Location: Gig Harbor, WA
Heat the finish with a hair dryer and remove it, one guide at a time. Once heated, cut down over the thread toward the rod. You can pry the finish off the guide foot and if you’re lucky, remove the finish in a single piece. Not likely, but the heating does make it easier to remove. Be careful as you do not want to remove any paint from the rod if it is colored. If you do remove some of the rod’s finish, make sure you wrap over what ghost marks remain.


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Re: Epoxy problems
Post 29 May 2018, 10:18 • #3 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 04/20/07
Posts: 8920
Location: US-ME
Remove and start over. The finish was contaminated in some way.

Sometimes a careful slice through the finish and thread with a razor blade will enable you to unwrap/peel away the thread and finish, almost like peeling away a wrap of tape. If the contamination affected the first coat, this is all the more likely to be the easiest way.

Two other tips: (1) if you were satisfied with the guide placement and alignment, and if the wraps come off easily without a lot of clean up work on the blanks itself, remove the wrap and finish from only one foot per guide and clean up the blank as necessary. In this way, you won't have to fuss with guide alignment or spacing again. Rewrap one guide foot to retain their position. Then go back and remove the other faulty wrap from each guide, clean up the blank there, and rewrap the other foot of each guide.

(2) Think through the process, tools, and work conditions you used in applying the finish the first time. , It is highly unlikely the product itself was faulty. Something happened in the process or a tool or your fingertips were contaminated, or temperature/humidity conditions were not optimum--or some combination of these. Figure out what it was so as not to repeat the error.


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Re: Epoxy problems
Post 29 May 2018, 10:31 • #4 
Sport
Joined: 04/27/18
Posts: 28
Location: France, Normandy
I just found out my wife put a plug in air fresher in the room as the epoxy smelled bad, perhaps that caused the problem?

I have to start again :( I suppose its better I'm happy with the finish than always unhappy with the finish.

I'd coated the blank over the logo, here there is no wraps. How do I strip the finish here?


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Re: Epoxy problems
Post 29 May 2018, 11:09 • #5 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 06/23/05
Posts: 4966
Location: US-MT
Heat, then scrape/peel with something like an old credit cart.

I just stay away from epoxies, that solves my problems. :)


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Re: Epoxy problems
Post 29 May 2018, 11:59 • #6 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 04/12/07
Posts: 1292
Location: western Massachusetts
It sounds like either you did not completely mix the 2 parts together on your second coat, or there was some contamination. I don't understand how air freshener would have caused it, unless the stuff was sprayed directly on the wraps. You want to mix and apply epoxy thread coatings in a relatively well ventilated room, people do develop sensitivities to this stuff under prolonged exposure.

Before you start trashing all your work, I would try mixing another batch of finish, and then apply it over the mess on one set of guide wraps as a test. Strive for a thin complete coat, turn for 3 hours, then let it dry 24 hours. If it still looks bad after that, go to the removal and re-wrap process - you never know with this stuff.


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Re: Epoxy problems
Post 29 May 2018, 13:37 • #7 
Master Guide
Joined: 02/24/12
Posts: 456
Location: US-MI
Good info. posted. Just checking, but what did you use to measure the two parts? How long did you mix it for? lumpy finish sounds like either the mixture was off or the two parts were not mixed well enough.


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Re: Epoxy problems
Post 29 May 2018, 14:21 • #8 
Sport
Joined: 04/27/18
Posts: 28
Location: France, Normandy
The two parts came in pre-loaded syringes, both syringes have the same amount left in them so I think I measured correctly. I mix for three minutes, I used my phone to check and the mixture was clear when I applied it. The finish went on smooth and looked perfect at first but as the epoxy started to get dry it started to become lumpy. It's not on all whippings, maybe a 1/3 are effected.

Thanks for all the help :)


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Re: Epoxy problems
Post 29 May 2018, 14:48 • #9 
Guide
Joined: 02/13/16
Posts: 326
Location: US-TX
No one has mentioned it yet but it sounds like fisheyes.

How long did you wait between coats?


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Re: Epoxy problems
Post 29 May 2018, 14:55 • #10 
Sport
Joined: 04/27/18
Posts: 28
Location: France, Normandy
Roughly 24hrs


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Re: Epoxy problems
Post 29 May 2018, 16:38 • #11 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 11/06/17
Posts: 2498
Location: South of Joplin
Never having used epoxy as a finish, I wonder if it could be carefully sanded and then recoated, rather than a complete removal? I'm sure that if I ever tried it, whatever could wrong would. thanks


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Re: Epoxy problems
Post 29 May 2018, 19:05 • #12 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 09/18/09
Posts: 5561
Location: Relocated to the Drought Stricken West.
I hate fisheyes. Contamination is the cause.

Clean your brushes in Denatured Alcohol (and let them dry before starting)
Don't touch you wraps (oil from your hands will cause contamination)
Most of all, don't use silicone anywhere near the blank, wraps or epoxy until after everything is done.

What rod blank is this. If it is an Epic blank, don't remove the wraps. The colored finish may come off. Other finishes may come off. I haven't heard of other modern finishes coming off, but there's always a possibility. I've never had it happen on a modern graphite blank with a baked on finish.

If you can remove the finish cleanly, I would do that. The sooner the better.
otherwise, sand it down to rough up the finish and put another thin coat on and live with the results.
Or just live with it.


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Re: Epoxy problems
Post 29 May 2018, 20:49 • #13 
Guide
Joined: 02/13/16
Posts: 326
Location: US-TX
Not extensive experience here but..

Seems like 24hrs also could be a bit long for regular Threadmaster. I only wait 8hrs for a 2nd coat of the lite version.


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Re: Epoxy problems
Post 29 May 2018, 21:54 • #14 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 06/08/05
Posts: 3570
Location: Western PA
I won't comment on the various fixes.
I will add some insights.
From my experience working with epoxy daily for my livelihood at one time:
What did you mix your finish on? Cardboard is neutral. Flex Coat cups are neutral. A lot of different plastics aren't neutral. Oh, stray tip; mixing on aluminum foil can keep your batch fresh for a bit longer.
What are you mixing the resins with? Craft/popsicle sticks are good. Coffee stirrers are a definite no. I used a long and flexible pallet knife. Stainless steel cleans fast and easy. Some call it a paint spatula.
Another tip, work in smaller batches. Consider coating just a few wraps with a fresh batch rather than trying to use something that's starting to harden.
Who knows? There's a lot of things that may have happened such as what you cleaned your brush with. I'm not some know it all. Lot's of this stuff I learned from either having done it wrong or seeing co-workers do stuff that went wrong.
Just a few things to consider. Good luck with your rewrap.


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Re: Epoxy problems
Post 30 May 2018, 06:25 • #15 
Master Guide
Joined: 02/01/12
Posts: 900
Location: Upstate NY
To determine what happened with your second coat more information is needed.

How did your first coat go? Did that have lumps or finish "pulling away" from areas that you applied it? Did your first coat cure fully? Remember Epoxies Cure, they do not Dry, its a chemical reaction, nothing evaporates from the mixture, unless you "thinned" the mixture by adding something like DNA or Acetone, then either of those two will "off gas" while the rest of the mixture cures, some of it can remain within the cured mixture, but that is a whole other conversation on whether or not that is a good thing.

Did you do anything to the rod between applying the coats of finish, like wipe the rod down? Touch any of the wraps with your fingers? The natural oils in our skin can cause issues, also if you "cleaned" the rod between applying finish, like with a "tack free" cloth, they have chemicals in them that cause dust particles to stick to the cloth, but it will leave a film on the first coat.

What speed is your rod dryer running at? For curing finish no higher than 18rpm is recommend, the ones that turn at 6 to 9rpm are best. Goes back to that first coat question, did that go on as applied and cured okay? If your speed was too high, your finish will lump up, and if your rod is not level, that will also cause the same problem, when rod is not level, finish will leach towards the low end.

Contamination, between coats, what did you clean the brush with? The Rod Dancer, U-40, or Flex Coat epoxy brush cleaners will clean a brush properly, as a final clean after using these products (and they can be interchanged) you can clean a brush with 90% Iso Alcohol, although it is not necessary.

How much finish did you apply? If you over applied your finish, putting way to much on, it will "lump" up, or take on the the appearance of a "football" look to the wrap (American football). Just look around at others finish work, you can see the ones that look nice, level, flat. The ones with a large hump in middle, they applied way to much finish.

Did you pour the finish out onto Aluminum foil before applying it? One side of Aluminum foil has a "release agent" on it, the shinny side, its there so the rolled up sheet does not stick to its self, should be obvious as to which side to pour finish onto.

Thread Master finish? Lite or Regular? Both have very different working times, by working time I mean the amount of time you can apply the finish before it sets up to the point where it will not flow and self level. Regular Thread Master has a short working time and it is not as viscous as the Lite Thread Master. This could also be your issue, finish setting up before you got the whole rod coated. I use both of these products all the time and I have for years, the Lite formula for all my builds due to the longer working time, the Regular for when I just need to repair a broken guide or two.

If you can, provide more detailed info to my questions. Also take a look at this link below, its how I apply my finish.

Your best bet may be to remove the finish and thread and start over, tread lightly doing this, like some of the others that have stated above, you can remove the paint on certain blanks if you are not careful. Also tread very lightly with heat when you try to soften the epoxy for removal, very little heat will be needed since the epoxy is still not fully cured at this point, it usually takes several days for it to reach full cure, by that I mean you may be able to "dent" the finish with a finger nail, even after it does not feet tacky after an overnight of sitting in a drying rack. Too much heat will also damage the resins that bind the glass cloth together.

Good luck

Oh, the plug in air freshener, not the problem. Also, Google "Fish Eyes in Rod Building Thread Finish", you find answers to what causes that.

http://www.rodbuilding.org/library/betterepoxy.pdf


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Re: Epoxy problems
Post 30 May 2018, 08:29 • #16 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 04/26/06
Posts: 3837
Location: Northeast Of Heaven
Hello
Humpty Dumpty Syndrome Here No Doubt.
Ever hear too many cooks spoil the soup ?
Tight Lines And OMG Loops
Andy M


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Re: Epoxy problems
Post 30 May 2018, 10:50 • #17 
Sport
Joined: 04/27/18
Posts: 28
Location: France, Normandy
wjude wrote:
How did your first coat go? Did that have lumps or finish "pulling away" from areas that you applied it? Did your first coat cure fully?

First coat was fine and smooth, not a lump at all. I put the epoxy on every morning so 24 hours or so between coats.

Did you do anything to the rod between applying the coats of finish, like wipe the rod down? Touch any of the wraps with your fingers? The natural oils in our skin can cause issues, also if you "cleaned" the rod between applying finish, like with a "tack free" cloth, they have chemicals in them that cause dust particles to stick to the cloth, but it will leave a film on the first coat.

The rod turns for about 4 hours, I then take it off the turner and place it in a cardboard box so no dust lands on the rod. The rod is supported in the box so the epoxy touches nothing. I don't touch the wraps once the epoxy goes on and don't clean the blank.

What speed is your rod dryer running at? For curing finish no higher than 18rpm is recommend, the ones that turn at 6 to 9rpm are best. Goes back to that first coat question, did that go on as applied and cured okay? If your speed was too high, your finish will lump up, and if your rod is not level, that will also cause the same problem, when rod is not level, finish will leach towards the low end.

The turner is at 9rpm. The first coat was good

Contamination, between coats, what did you clean the brush with? The Rod Dancer, U-40, or Flex Coat epoxy brush cleaners will clean a brush properly, as a final clean after using these products (and they can be interchanged) you can clean a brush with 90% Iso Alcohol, although it is not necessary.

I use throw away brushes so I don't clean them

How much finish did you apply? If you over applied your finish, putting way to much on, it will "lump" up, or take on the the appearance of a "football" look to the wrap (American football). Just look around at others finish work, you can see the ones that look nice, level, flat. The ones with a large hump in middle, they applied way to much finish.

The epoxy went on thin, the lumps aren't in the middle of the wrap. I apply a coat of epoxy and it leveled itself, I check after 30 minutes and the finish is good so I leave the rod spinning as I go out. When I come back the finish is bad, it's almost like the epoxy unleveled itself. In places the epoxy doesn't stick and flows back to form lumps where the epoxy sticks.

Did you pour the finish out onto Aluminum foil before applying it? One side of Aluminum foil has a "release agent" on it, the shinny side, its there so the rolled up sheet does not stick to its self, should be obvious as to which side to pour finish onto.

I use aluminum ash trays that are designed to be thrown away, like what McDonalds used to have if you remember. Maybe thats my problem?

Thread Master finish? Lite or Regular?

I use Thread master normal, I'm only doing half a rod at a time. I guess it is less than 20 minutes I apply the epoxy for. When I check back the epoxy has leveled and is smooth and then later it isn't level or smooth :eek
http://www.rodbuilding.org/library/betterepoxy.pdf


I'm very confused.

This morning I put another coat of epoxy on the whippings as they can't get worse :lol. The whippings are now good, not perfect but very good. I have no bubbles, the epoxy is smooth and level but as there is three coats of epoxy maybe a little thick but they are level and smooth and look good so I'm happy.

I do have one problem and it's a big one. The epoxy on the logo is just horrible, it was smooth when I last checked it but now it looks like just before the epoxy dried a brush was dragged across it. >:


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Re: Epoxy problems
Post 30 May 2018, 12:17 • #18 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 11/25/09
Posts: 2319
I'm not going to add any recommendations because I think wjude covered it. Just a welcome to the frustrating world of epoxy. It can be maddening.


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Re: Epoxy problems
Post 30 May 2018, 14:10 • #19 
Master Guide
Joined: 02/01/12
Posts: 900
Location: Upstate NY
First off, 20 min to do half a rod, that is too long, you should be able to move quick and efficiently enough to cover each wrap in about 30 seconds, less than 10 min for an entire rod. I understand that you are a beginner at this, but you do need to move along before the stuff starts to set up. Regular Thread Master has a short pot life. You might want to try the Lite Formula, that has a much longer working time.

I think you have two problems, working to slow and finish is starting to cure to the point that it does not become workable and you are applying too much finish on each wrap.

Those foil trays? Did you buy them from a rod building supply company? Those are the only ones that will not be coated with something. You can go the Aluminum foil route, just put a piece over a tea cup plate or something similar, dull side up!

Decal, that problem is two fold, first the decal itself is coated, epoxy does not like to stick to it, second when you smooth it out, you can push some of the adhesive out and onto the blank or first coat of epoxy. Get some color preserver, just put a very light coat over it.


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Re: Epoxy problems
Post 30 May 2018, 15:06 • #20 
Sport
Joined: 04/27/18
Posts: 28
Location: France, Normandy
Thanks Wjude, I'll take your advice on board


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Re: Epoxy problems
Post 30 May 2018, 18:22 • #21 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 04/20/07
Posts: 8920
Location: US-ME
Just one more possibility. Was your thread fuzzy? Bumps will form around whisps of thread. They need to be singed off with a cool flame after the wraps are packed and before finishing. Doesn't sound like it, but since we have wound up covering lots of angles, figured it wouldn't hurt to ask.


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Re: Epoxy problems
Post 30 May 2018, 18:49 • #22 
Sport
Joined: 04/27/18
Posts: 28
Location: France, Normandy
It does not hurt to ask and I can always learn. I did use a lighter to remove any fluff from the whipping, one whipping needed to be done again and the silk was very fuzzy and would not come 'clean' with the lighter.

What is so frustrating is I've tried to be careful to avoid problems and I've had a headache of a rod build. I'm sure it can be fixed and I hope I use up all the rods bad luck now and have none left for the river :lol


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Re: Epoxy problems
Post 31 May 2018, 06:00 • #23 
Master Guide
Joined: 02/01/12
Posts: 900
Location: Upstate NY
There is your contamination, residue from the use of a lighter to singe the fuzzies. An Alcohol Burner is the only thing you should use to singe silk. They burn very clean compared to a Bic Style lighter, those things, during combustion will give of residue in the form of Smoke ( gas that has not burned off due to low temp of the lighter), that residue was on the thread, whether you could see it or not. When your first coat went on, it mixed with the epoxy, since you put a "light application" for you first coat the lumps did not show up, however, the smoke/residue, was in the mixture. Then when you applied the second coat over a "smooth" first coat, that residue caused the epoxy to "pull away" from certain areas and give you those lumps.

Get an Alcohol Burner if you are going to continue to use Silk or stay away from Silk and go with Regular Nylon. Nylon is much more user friendly to beginner builders and pro's alike.


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Re: Epoxy problems
Post 31 May 2018, 07:46 • #24 
Sport
Joined: 04/27/18
Posts: 28
Location: France, Normandy
Thanks :)


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Re: Epoxy problems
Post 03 Jun 2018, 01:16 • #25 
Sport
Joined: 04/27/18
Posts: 28
Location: France, Normandy
I have a alcohol burner in the post and I should have it tomorrow, I hope it will solve my problem.

Image

Not perfect but when I think how it looked a few days ago I am very happy


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