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Post 02 Dec 2017, 11:44 • #1 
Sport
Joined: 08/31/17
Posts: 39
Location: US-LA
I did a few test wraps using YLI 100 silk (don't worry Dusty, these are under the cork lol). The wraps and colors looked great until I took a toothpick and soaked them with Helmsman Spar Urethane. This is a after they dried overnight. What did I do wrong to get this result?

Image


Last edited by eagle24 on 02 Dec 2017, 20:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Post 02 Dec 2017, 12:23 • #2 
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Joined: 01/02/12
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You didn’t do anything wrong. That’s what happens when you apply any kind of finish without CP. Personally, I like what happens when varnish is applied to thread. That’s why you have test wraps.

Thought you were worried about change in thread color! Likely that the “two color” tones of your test wraps the result of varnish not completely penetrating.


Last edited by retiredfisher1 on 02 Dec 2017, 12:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Post 02 Dec 2017, 12:24 • #3 
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eagle24,
I wish I had an answer, but only guessing. As this is after only one application of the varnish, maybe the thread is not being thoroughly saturated. You don't mention the use of any color preserver, so I am going to assume you want transparent wraps from your silk thread. Unpreserved wraps will usually reflect the blank color through the thread. This could be what the dark spots are, and the lighter parts are not thoroughly saturated wraps of thread. I thin my first coats 50/50 and spend quite a bit of time working the varnish into the thread, especially when I'm using silk threads. My other guess is the darker spots are from contamination. Some how the thread picked up dirt or oil from your hands/fingers, tensioning device, or a packing tool. It's very hard to suggest anything without actually handling the rod and knowing your process. Hope someone can give a more direct answer, as I've only experienced this type of discoloration when I did not thoroughly saturate the thread. With grease from my fingers to tensioner the discoloration is different.
Respectfully rvreclus


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Post 02 Dec 2017, 12:37 • #4 
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Guesses (presuming you want transparent wraps). What you have there is a case of the Shimmers. Search previous post for some suggestions. And pay attention to some of the answers from the great rodbuilders or professional varnisher (Ratface McD).

Thread too tight. You have to be very gentle with silk and keep it much looser than you would think to avoid the shimmers.

Or, oil on the silk from you hands. Touch the thread as little as possible and wash your hands before wrapping.

Or: not enough varnish on the first coat. You want to put it on and actually keep adding or rotating. If you put enough on initially and it drys without completely coating the wraps, it makes that type of mess.

If you figure it out, let me know. I still have problems getting a consistent transparent finish.


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Post 02 Dec 2017, 12:44 • #5 
Sport
Joined: 08/31/17
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Location: US-LA
I didn't use color preserver and I took every precaution to ensure I didn't contaminate the thread. I also didn't thin the spar urethane. I had watched a video where it was applied a drop at a time using a bodkin. That's what I attempted to do, but it wanted to just sit on top of the thread and I had to distribute the varnish with the toothpick. I can mash the thread with my finger nail and the color comes back. I can't tell if it is trapped air, or exactly what is going on. Is this a result of using silk, or a result of using spar urethane? Also, what is "shimmer"? I have read threads about it, but I can't really find an explanation of exactly what it is.


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Post 02 Dec 2017, 13:24 • #6 
Master Guide
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Haven't ever used silk. When I've used spar with unpreserved nylon, the thread absorbs the spar quickly. Kind of puzzling.


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Post 02 Dec 2017, 14:28 • #7 
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Be thankful these are just test wraps - you just saved yourself a lot of work! It looks like incomplete saturation to me. Now that those test wraps are sealed, it won't look any better if you put a second coat on. If you want to continue to use spar urethane, you might try thinning the first coat to allow easier penetration of the wraps - again as a test first to see if it works better. I've only used spar urethane on one rod and on that one I color preserved the thread so there was no penetration of the wraps at all and it turned out very nice. My guess is that regular spar varnish penetrates easier and more completely than spar urethane and I believe some builders even warm or thin spar varnish for the first coat. It also dries slower, allowing more time for penetration.


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Post 02 Dec 2017, 15:05 • #8 
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Good advice already given. I have had better luck with spar varnish over urethane.


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Post 02 Dec 2017, 15:17 • #9 
Sport
Joined: 08/31/17
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Location: US-LA
Does silk have to be color preserved to not go clear? I was under the impression it would darken, but still maintain some color without using CP.


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Post 02 Dec 2017, 15:40 • #10 
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If you want translucent colors, you really need a vivid color to start with. Or try a slightly thicker silk. #50.

If the spar urethane actually just sat on top, and it was watery to begin with, my best guess is the wraps were too tight. Try wrapping with as little tension on the thread as you can get away with and try again. When silk is under tension, it stretches. The best that I can figure out is that in this state, it traps more air in it and it is harder for the varnish to sink in. If the urethane already had a bit of tack to it, maybe try thinning it.

The shimmers are just fine air bubbles that are caught in the silk. If you were to apply multiple coats of varnish over that one, it would end up with the "shimmers".
But it also looks like you needed more varnish on it. You should get a liquid that completely coats the silk and let that stay on for a bit before wicking it off.

I have had better luck with spar varnish rather than spar urethane, but I also will use rub on urethane and then coat it with spar varnish. I've moved back to epoxy because I get more consistent results, though when you get disasters with epoxy, they are a lot harder to fix.


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Post 02 Dec 2017, 15:43 • #11 
Master Guide
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colored silk will not go clear it will go translucent. The color will remain, but you will be able to see through it. CP will make the thread opaque.


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Post 02 Dec 2017, 16:09 • #12 
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Without color preserver it makes a big difference what color your blank is. With a dark brown blank like a Steffen, most lighter colored threads are radically darkened to various shades of brown - most of them not too nice. Those same light colors on a yellow blank show much more of their color.


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Post 02 Dec 2017, 16:22 • #13 
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Key descriptive phrase: "it wanted to just sit on top of the thread." In other words, it was too viscous to soak into the thread. Without CP, the first coat should soak in almost as obviously and quickly as if you were to place a droplet of alcohol or mineral spirits on the thread. In fact, doing this is a good way to see what the potential color outcomes are, by watching as the fluid evaporates. Somewhere in the range soon after the thread is "wetted" in this way, but before the fluid completely evaporates is about how the thread will look. Anyhow, poly spar does seem to be more viscous than conventional spar from the can. The product directions will tell you what thinners are optimum. For a given rate of application, it leaves a slightly thicker finish as well. Personally, I wouldn't screw with it but just use conventional spar, which will soak in better unthinned, or even better warmed and thinned with the recommended thinner, usually mineral spirits. Just a few droplets swiped across the thread will soak right in.


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Post 02 Dec 2017, 17:39 • #14 
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I have never used spar urethane, but have seen the same result using conventional spar varnish. I'll tell you when I have noticed this the spar "sitting on top of the thread" and the uneven, blotchy results. It happens when the varnish is old, from a can that has been sitting around for a few months. It happens when the varnish has begun to gas off (from age and exposure to air) and has thickened up. Are you using fresh spar urethane?


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Post 02 Dec 2017, 20:49 • #15 
Sport
Joined: 08/31/17
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Location: US-LA
It's a new can I brought home from my store yesterday. We sell a lot of it and get stock in almost every week. I also made sure it was stirred well. Here's another pic of 2 more wraps. The original wraps are at the bottom 1-2-3. The 4th-5th wraps at the top. The 4th wrap is the same silk thread as the 1st wrap. I wrapped it really loose and made sure I saturated it well with the spar urethane. The 5th wrap is Canary Yellow Nylon thread. Also wrapped loose and well saturated. I'm a little puzzled about how the urethane should look after the first coat if done correctly. I know it will darken the thread and I expect an ambering of the color. The result I'm getting is a dirty look. I've probably got about 40 rods down at my shop. I'm gonna find a light colored one to sacrifice for more experimenting.
Image


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Post 03 Dec 2017, 08:11 • #16 
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Just my 2 cents: no matter what kind of finish I'm going to use (spar varnish, spar urethane or a water-based finish) the first and base coat is ALWAYS thinned 2 part epoxy to get the translucent look of the silk I want (and the 'bonding between blank and thread as well).
Worked everytime although there were inconsistent wraps, but then it was the silk and not the finish.


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Post 03 Dec 2017, 10:06 • #17 
Master Guide
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I've used helmsman spar urethane and YLI 100 silk on quite a few rods. I really like the combo. It gives a nice translucent wrap. I suppose the best comparison would be a stained glass window where you have color in the glass but can still see through it.

Check the can to confirm your using oil based and not water based. Water based will give you what you have there. It acts as a very poor and blotchy color preserver and doesn't soak into the thread the same as the oil based. You end up with some translucent areas and some areas where the thread keeps its original color, just like in your pictures.


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Post 03 Dec 2017, 11:33 • #18 
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I also use thinned epoxy, thinned with dna for my first coat. Then to spar.

Bob


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Post 03 Dec 2017, 15:36 • #19 
Sport
Joined: 08/31/17
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Location: US-LA
Helmsman Spar Urethane. It is not water based. I'm experimenting with it thinned 50/50 with mineral spirits. i think I will gradually increase the Spar Urethane after the first few coats. It seems to be working much better so far, but I don't have the wraps completely sealed yet.


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Post 03 Dec 2017, 19:53 • #20 
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That's more my approach thinning 50/50, my Spar MOW varnish is thinned with Turpentine. It does have an odor but using a fan, drawing air away from my bench(not blowing across my work), keeps the fumes too a minimum. I use the 50/50 mix(usually not more than 1/4 pint in volume) for the 1st and 2nd coats and then add varnish, to what remains, as I build my finish. Usually 5 to 6 applications of varnish the last two at almost full strength. Sometimes it's one or two more coats till I get the build I'm looking for oo the wraps. When I use CP I don't thin the varnish as much.
Respectfully rvreclus


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Post 03 Dec 2017, 20:21 • #21 
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I’ve got a bunch of YLI 10p, and I use Helmsman a lot, mostly because it’s readily available. But I’ve found I do have to work extra hard to saturate the thread the first coat. Thinning works, but takes long to dry. I prefer heating it in a hot (almost boiling) water bath - the viscosity changes drastically and it runs much, much better.

My best results, though, have actually been to do the first soaking coat with thinned epoxy (1/1/1 resin/hardener/acetone) - that way the silk goes as evenly clear/translucent as it’s going to get. Then I let it cure 24 hours before continuing with thin coats of warm Helmsman. Usually 4 coats.


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Post 04 Dec 2017, 22:20 • #22 
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Quote:
my Spar MOW varnish is thinned with Turpentine. It does have an odor but


If you have a decent art supply store in the area they should have some higher quality and odor free mineral spirits.


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Post 17 Dec 2017, 05:55 • #23 
Guide
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Location: Denmark - northern Jutland
You don't need thinned varnish, you need hot varnish. The more you thin the less of the "useable" stuff will remain once the thinner has evaporated, which again leads to unsaturated wraps once dried.


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