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Another Rookie Mistake
Post 22 Mar 2017, 12:35 • #1 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 02/12/16
Posts: 4106
Location: USA-CO
When I first learned rodbuilding, I was taught to install the butt cap as the final step in the build. In building my old Lamiglas #1802, I decided to depart from that process and pre-glue the entire seat assembly prior to installation. I figured, "What could go wrong?" There would be no issues associated with air compression, as the butt section is hollow all the way through the spigot ferrule. So, I glued the seat up. Several hours later, I realized what could go wrong. Some epoxy could have seeped into the cap, which would prevent the seat from sliding all the way to the handle. I checked, and sure enough:
ImageImage

So, I've another seat coming from SWCR. This one will go on another rod. The moral: stick to the expert guidance you've received!


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Post 22 Mar 2017, 15:34 • #2 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 04/12/07
Posts: 1296
Location: western Massachusetts
We have all done something like that. If you don't try something different-how ya gonna learn. It looks like you could probably put a cork shim or something in there to save the day.


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Post 22 Mar 2017, 15:54 • #3 
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Joined: 02/12/16
Posts: 4106
Location: USA-CO
archfly wrote:
We have all done something like that. If you don't try something different-how ya gonna learn. It looks like you could probably put a cork shim or something in there to save the day.


Thanks for commiserating. Great suggestion; I'll do just that when I mount it to another blank, to fill up the space and effect contact with the end of the blank all around. I could just saw 1/8" off the butt of this rod, but I'd rather get it right.

(edit) I think I misunderstood -- you're talking about a cork shim behind the handle, and I was thinking of a shim stuffed down into the butt cap. With your suggestion, I could go ahead and use the seat as is, on this rod. Going to the cellar now...


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Post 22 Mar 2017, 17:29 • #4 
Guide
Joined: 06/08/16
Posts: 327
Location: US-MI
Can't you just trim some off the end of the rod blank butt?


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Post 22 Mar 2017, 18:07 • #5 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 02/12/16
Posts: 4106
Location: USA-CO
The Purist wrote:
Can't you just trim some off the end of the rod blank butt?


Yes, sir. That was my first thought when I discovered the problem, and what I would've done if I couldn't quickly get another seat. Very first rod I built, I mis-measured for the seat, and I had to saw about 1/16" off the blank, so i realized I could do that here.

The seat I glued up will be perfectly usable on another rod, so I'm not out anything.


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Post 22 Mar 2017, 20:59 • #6 
Guide
Joined: 06/08/16
Posts: 327
Location: US-MI
Beautiful reel seat BTW!


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Post 23 Mar 2017, 00:32 • #7 
Master Guide
Joined: 04/27/09
Posts: 573
Location: US-SD
Heat can be used to break that epoxy bond if you wanted to.


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Post 23 Mar 2017, 00:49 • #8 
Guide
Joined: 09/25/14
Posts: 108
Location: US-CA
I had something similar happen when the epoxy I used to glue the grip set up before I could slide it all the way down to the reel seat. I solved it by slicing a cork ring to fit the gap, reaming the hole to fit the blank, and then making 1 slice to open it. I just stuffed it into the gap and sanded it down to shape. You can't even see what I did if I told you.


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Post 23 Mar 2017, 05:13 • #9 
Master Guide
Joined: 12/31/13
Posts: 519
Location: US-Mount Pleasant, SC
You might have noticed that with the LC1 butt cap there is a difference between where it seats the insert and where the butt cap seats the blank. In other words, it is unlike most butt caps where the insert and butt of the blank seat against the same inner surface.


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Post 23 Mar 2017, 05:23 • #10 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 04/20/07
Posts: 8931
Location: US-ME
Thanks for describing this experience, and thus generating various solutions--all with the idea that if we aren't trying something and making a mistake from time to time, we aren't learning and finding a better way for our purpose. These days I am building so little that sometimes I don't even remember how I did something the last time so I think it out all over.

I'll tell you one concept I have used for years satisfactorily, not because of a mistake in fitting a reel seat but because I always know I might want to change one or realign it. I like to cant a reel seat so the guides hang exactly a 6 o'clock when the rod is held in a customary fishing position, let's say horizontal to 35 degrees angle upward. That depends on what reels I find I want to use most frequently on that rod, even what lines or what type of fishing I wind up doing most with it--upstream casts and dead drifts, downstream swings, etc. I want the guides to orient optimally to the most common rod and line angle, rather than have to be held there against rotary force of the reel wanting to hang the rod in a different position, usually a few degrees one way or the other. That is a source of fatigue for a person with nerve damage in both wrists.

Probuilders typically use max adhesives. They don't want comebacks, nor expect that the user will be making micro adjustments--having already customized as much as feasible to the user prefs--afterwards.

A hobby builder is the customizer. So anyhow, I use the mildest, most easily released glue there is. The worst that can happen--it never has--would be that the reel seat loosens when I didn't want it to, so I would have to swap rods for a day and glue it back snug that evening.

Lately I have been using craft hot melt glue for this purpose--without failure. I can fiddle with micro adjustments any time after the slightest application of heat. I can change a reel seat on a whim--for cosmetics, for better fit to match some different reels I favored with the rod, for downlock to up lock, to replace a damaged seat, and so on. Most important to me is alignment, canting as necessary to minimize the reel's rotary force against the optimum fishing position. I assemble the reel seat components the same way.

Several of these have been used in stout duty without failure.

A pair of Conolon rebuilds, both hotmelt glued--cork, reel seat components, and reel seat--got me trusting this mild adhesive in "field testing," during a spree on trout when fish after fish after fish, day after day after day, gave the tackle a workout.

Image

A Fenwick, heavily fished since, glued up the same way.
Image


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Post 23 Mar 2017, 05:26 • #11 
Master Guide
Joined: 11/28/15
Posts: 378
Location: US-NC
westernwaters wrote:
I had something similar happen when the epoxy I used to glue the grip set up before I could slide it all the way down to the reel seat. I solved it by slicing a cork ring to fit the gap, reaming the hole to fit the blank, and then making 1 slice to open it. I just stuffed it into the gap and sanded it down to shape. You can't even see what I did if I told you.


I always use long set epoxy for reel seats and corks. There is time to take it apart, clean it up and re-glue if necessary, which I had to do on part of a casting reel seat I built recently.

BB


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Post 23 Mar 2017, 10:02 • #12 
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Joined: 02/12/16
Posts: 4106
Location: USA-CO
Marty Romeo wrote:
You might have noticed that with the LC1 butt cap there is a difference between where it seats the insert and where the butt cap seats the blank. In other words, it is unlike most butt caps where the insert and butt of the blank seat against the same inner surface.


Yes, I did notice when I dry-fit the seat. The barrel and ring, when flush to the handle, leave maybe 3/16" of the blank exposed, onto which the end cap fits. In my case, the seeped glue prevented that exposed blank fitting fully into the cap.

Whrlpool, I'm very interested in your hot-glue solution, to where I've come very close to buying a gun and some glue sticks. I intensely dislike working with epoxy. Do you use high-temperature, low, or dual-temp glue? Also, do you have any trouble with glue setting before the parts are in place? I've been concerned about hot-gluing the handle especially, and perhaps seats with wood inserts, fearing that I couldn't get the part hot enough without burning, should I need to add heat either for placement or disassembly. The all-metal LC10 I'm now working with would be a good candidate for me to try.


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Post 23 Mar 2017, 12:45 • #13 
Guide
Joined: 01/25/13
Posts: 339
Location: Avondale Az
You use that hot melt glue here where I'm at, in the summer you'll pop that end cap right off the first time you mount the reel


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Post 23 Mar 2017, 13:31 • #14 
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Joined: 02/12/16
Posts: 4106
Location: USA-CO
SWCR wrote:
You use that hot melt glue here where I'm at, in the summer you'll pop that end cap right off the first time you mount the reel


I can see that! I already use thermoplastic tip-top cement, and I'd bet that'd come loose in Arizona in July. :eek


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Post 23 Mar 2017, 13:46 • #15 
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Joined: 04/20/07
Posts: 8931
Location: US-ME
Try it. I think mine is high-temp, but I use whatever my wife has for her crafts. Hot melt glue does not come close to melting at extreme outdoor temperatures anymore than conventional ferrule cement does. I can assure you I was smart enough to try that before using it.

Ferrule cement is just another form of thermoplastic cement. Essentially the same stuff also holds stuffed boxes together in shipping, storage, transport, and rough handling. Normal outdoor temperatures do not loosen it. I carried pieces of it in my vest and various tackle bags, often left in a parked car, for years. None melted or even softened and slightly reshaped.

Of course a rod can be cooked in an overheated car left in bright sun on a hot day, but there will be other damage before any of the glue lets go.

If you try it, you will be field testing, just as I said. A pro or a manufacturer warranting his product is not going to suggest that. But reel seats remained in place perfectly well decades ago before the advent of two-part epoxy glues--resorcinol glues and Pliobond being just a couple frequently used, Duco cement is another, glues of its type requiring a trial to make sure they aren't harmful to a particular fiberlass rod's resins. Actually, Duco or Seal-all are pretty darn strong and hard to remove, but not as "permanent" as epoxy. But none suddenly give up and fall off (barring poor prep and a weak bond to begin with). All are easier to remove and replace, epoxies that indicate they are specifically heat-loosened being about as easy. For a hobbyist, think of it this way: if you ever want to adjust your reel seat or install a different one, you will never have to ruin it in the process, likely with high strength epoxy. Even if you don't quite trust one of the milder glues, it is highly unlikely it will just fall off.

For all I know, it is possible to damage a blank if the glue is at its max melted heat when applied. I tried to do that with various scraps and couldn't, but I supposed it could happen. I think torching a tip in applying conventional tiptop cement is more likely, but I never managed that, either.

Again, think of it as an experiment if you try it.


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Post 23 Mar 2017, 14:16 • #16 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 02/12/16
Posts: 4106
Location: USA-CO
Will do some experimenting with the hot glue; thanks for good guidance.


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Post 23 Mar 2017, 15:09 • #17 
Master Guide
Joined: 04/02/14
Posts: 541
Location: US- Northern CO
i was gluing the butt cap on a down locker one time and did not pay attention to the extra glue that filled the receiver for my reel foot. way worse problem then yours.


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Post 23 Mar 2017, 17:07 • #18 
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Joined: 02/12/16
Posts: 4106
Location: USA-CO
xNYkid wrote:
i was gluing the butt cap on a down locker one time and did not pay attention to the extra glue that filled the receiver for my reel foot. way worse problem then yours.


Yes it is, and sorry that happened. I'm pretty paranoid about just that, and take pains to keep glue out of the clearance for reel foot. I have had to dab some out with a toothpick. I also keep some of the little pointed, tight-wound cotton swabs they sell at Hobby Lobby or Sally Beauty supply. One of those with a little denatured alcohol will clean out glue seepage. They're useful in removing grease-pencil guide marks once wraps are in place, too.


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Post 23 Mar 2017, 21:02 • #19 
Guide
Joined: 02/13/16
Posts: 326
Location: US-TX
I'm using Rod dancer's 15min epoxy gel for seats and grips and I really like it. It doesn't run around so you have to only blob it where you really want it. You can kinda scrape it out of spots too, since it's viscous.


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Post 24 Mar 2017, 06:36 • #20 
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Joined: 02/12/16
Posts: 4106
Location: USA-CO
preast wrote:
I'm using Rod dancer's 15min epoxy gel for seats and grips and I really like it. It doesn't run around so you have to only blob it where you really want it. You can kinda scrape it out of spots too, since it's viscous.


I used Pro Paste 15 minute (more like 20-21 at 63 degrees). It's actually pretty runny for a paste epoxy.


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Post 25 Mar 2017, 20:22 • #21 
Guide
Joined: 10/30/14
Posts: 326
Location: Cayuga, Ontario, Canada
whrlpool wrote:
Try it. I think mine is high-temp, but I use whatever my wife has for her crafts. Hot melt glue does not come close to melting at extreme outdoor temperatures anymore than conventional ferrule cement does. I can assure you I was smart enough to try that before using it.

Ferrule cement is just another form of thermoplastic cement. Essentially the same stuff also holds stuffed boxes together in shipping, storage, transport, and rough handling. Normal outdoor temperatures do not loosen it. I carried pieces of it in my vest and various tackle bags, often left in a parked car, for years. None melted or even softened and slightly reshaped.

Of course a rod can be cooked in an overheated car left in bright sun on a hot day, but there will be other damage before any of the glue lets go.

If you try it, you will be field testing, just as I said. A pro or a manufacturer warranting his product is not going to suggest that. But reel seats remained in place perfectly well decades ago before the advent of two-part epoxy glues--resorcinol glues and Pliobond being just a couple frequently used, Duco cement is another, glues of its type requiring a trial to make sure they aren't harmful to a particular fiberlass rod's resins. Actually, Duco or Seal-all are pretty darn strong and hard to remove, but not as "permanent" as epoxy. But none suddenly give up and fall off (barring poor prep and a weak bond to begin with). All are easier to remove and replace, epoxies that indicate they are specifically heat-loosened being about as easy. For a hobbyist, think of it this way: if you ever want to adjust your reel seat or install a different one, you will never have to ruin it in the process, likely with high strength epoxy. Even if you don't quite trust one of the milder glues, it is highly unlikely it will just fall off.

For all I know, it is possible to damage a blank if the glue is at its max melted heat when applied. I tried to do that with various scraps and couldn't, but I supposed it could happen. I think torching a tip in applying conventional tiptop cement is more likely, but I never managed that, either.

Again, think of it as an experiment if you try it.


I'd be interested in trying this out. High temperature hot melt glue should not melt even when exposed to higher temperatures during the summer. It's easy to apply, shouldn't be to hard to remove, and fills gaps and voids very well. I've seen hot melt adhesives used more and more in industry, there are even systems using hot melt for applying laminate to plywood now.


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Post 26 Mar 2017, 06:35 • #22 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 04/20/07
Posts: 8931
Location: US-ME
Production methods and hobby methods aren't necessarily the same. In rodbuilding as in anything else, it is good to be skeptical but it is hard to argue with success. Looking back, five years worth now. Cork rings to finished grip and reel seat mounted, an hour or two:

viewtopic.php?p=96392#p96392

I have probably jinxed myself and won't get ideal results on the next one.


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Post 26 Mar 2017, 10:35 • #23 
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Joined: 02/12/16
Posts: 4106
Location: USA-CO
Received the new seat from SWCR and the rod is ready to complete. The seat is a very good fit for this blank; note minimal arbors:
Image

The fit is good, and the clearance at end for butt cap is visible as noted by Marty Romeo:
Image

Fit all looks good. Will post pics on "Whats On Your Bench" thread when she's all done.
Image


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Post 26 Mar 2017, 11:09 • #24 
Guide
Joined: 01/25/13
Posts: 339
Location: Avondale Az
Your on the way now for sure.


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Post 26 Mar 2017, 11:14 • #25 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 04/20/07
Posts: 8931
Location: US-ME
SWCR beat me to it. Lookin' good. I bet you will clean that other one up sooner or later and find a use for it.


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