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Reel 'Patterns'
Post 13 Sep 2017, 19:13 • #1 
Sport
Joined: 12/07/11
Posts: 78
Location: US-GA
I sometimes see reels manufactured by some of the old line UK companies referred to as (eg) pattern 8, or pattern 1c, etc. I suspect that it has to do with generation of manufacture, but thus far haven't been able to craft a query that turned up any sort of definitions. Can someone tell me where to look to find out what these refer to ?


and many thanks


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Re: Reel 'Patterns'
Post 13 Sep 2017, 21:47 • #2 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19104
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
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Pattern numbers are specific to JW Young prewar fly and spinning reels.
The system began in 1925 and followed through in their catalogs up to the war.
Young primarily sold reels to merchants with a menu that included finish grades, merchant marks, etc. and the pattern numbers were used in their wholesale catalogs.

Though some reels were marked and sold directly as JW Young, most were merchant-marked and sold through the merchant catalogs, such as Allcocks, Farlow, Ogden-Smiths, Milward, Alex Martin, Mary Thornburn of Edinburgh, Pape of Newcastle, Army Navy CSL, Hatton of Hereford, Manwaring of Paris, etc., and even some exported and marked for North American merchants, Wm. Mills & Son, Richardson of Chicago, Lyon & Coulson of Buffalo, Abbey & Imbrie, Edward vom Hofe, FE Thomas, R&W Kerr Montreal, etc.

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Elwyn Attwood based his book on JW Young on the content of a collection of the Young wholesale catalogs, which came from Young of Redditch archives.
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pattern 1c marked Army Navy, pattern 15a marked as Lyon & Coulson Varden, pattern 1c marked as Allcocks Ousel

1939 Allcocks catalog
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The 8943 and 8944 are patterns 14a and 15a,
The 8945 Stockbridge is pattern 16a.

Same reels in 1936 Milward cat (with Milward's numbers)
The 3663 is a pattern 8 (which Allcocks sold as prewar Gilmour)
Image ok, mostly - the 3671 in salmon size is a pattern 10a (not 16a)

Other than Young's wholesale catalog designation, there's really no rhyme or reason to the numbering - though it probably made sense to production at Mayfield Works, such as reel designs based on a common casting, e.g., 10.
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Thomas Special rod with a Thomas Special reel
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Last edited by bulldog1935 on 14 Sep 2017, 22:24, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Reel 'Patterns'
Post 13 Sep 2017, 21:57 • #3 
Master Guide
Joined: 08/19/12
Posts: 477
Location: Central Oklahoma
Thanks Bulldog that was fascinating history. I appreciate you're willingness to take the time to create this kind of content.


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Re: Reel 'Patterns'
Post 14 Sep 2017, 09:43 • #4 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
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Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
It's something I have been working since I found my first marked prewar Young fly reel from Australia.
Rupe (Elwyn) and I swapped info during his manuscript and he used one of my photos in his book.
There was a time any Brit reel not Hardy was simply called a "Dingley."
About the time I had most of my conclusions together is when word on Rupe's manuscript got out.
Have to say, easier for him to write the book on his side of the pond and with his connections in Redditch....

The big Redditch merchants, Allcocks, Milwards, began as needle manufacturers, and fish hooks was a natural outcrop. That grew into tackle, which was actually a small sideline compared to their needle business. Any history search of Redditch will find a giant overlap of family names between all these companies. James W Young's father worked for S. Allcock Co., and Young James began work there. He opened his own shop in 1905, though most of his output still went to Allcock. JW died in an accident in 1924, and it was his sons who grew the business, beginning the wholesale catalog effort in 1925. After the war, his sons' tackle business blew Allcock's and everyone else out of the water.

Big merchants like Allcocks, Ogden-Smiths and Farlow are perfect example of how complicated the system was, as well as how they played the artisan shops against each other.
Farlow sold 45 reel models in their 1935 catalog, including examples from Young, Smith & Wall, Heaton as well as their own Croydon reel works, further complicated by the fact their catalog claimed some of the Redditch reels were made in Croydon.
Allcocks exported reels to North America from all the British and Scot artisans even before WWI, and Allcocks Ousel went back and forth from Dingley to Young.
Ogden Smiths Exchequer began as Dingley-made (Alnwick), became a Young pattern 2a, then at the end of the 40s returned to son Ernest Dingley. Ernest Dingley, Alex Martin, (Scot) Milbro and Sharpes were eventually bought out by Dickson who then made many more Ogden Smiths and Farlow reels, etc.
It gets even more complicated in the 60s and on, with Shakespeare and Orvis buying German and Brit tackle makers.

You can see from my first photo on this thread, Young had thing for Shakespeare, copying their prewar box graphic to detail. In 1966, Shakespeare acquired Young, Allcocks, and Lee, already merged into Topp Tackle.
Grandson Jim eventually bought Young back from Shakespeare. They continued making fly reels until 2002, when they closed that line, and still make centerpin reels today.
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this Revolution is s/n 94, and the cert paper dated the last month of production


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Re: Reel 'Patterns'
Post 14 Sep 2017, 10:43 • #5 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 10/12/06
Posts: 1184
Location: US-CA
Bulldog,
I would also like to thank you for these posts. Great info.
Respectfully rvreclus


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Re: Reel 'Patterns'
Post 14 Sep 2017, 11:17 • #6 
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Joined: 08/10/05
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Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
the pattern 8, no doubt their best-selling prewar reel, became the model for the poswar -exes
This is a Pridex and my Thornburn (my first really nice lead-finished Young, still containing most of the lampblack)
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and 3" pattern 10a marked for Manwaring, with most of its lampblack
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Re: Reel 'Patterns'
Post 14 Sep 2017, 12:45 • #7 
Master Guide
Joined: 07/05/05
Posts: 742
Location: US-VA
Bulldog: You are an absolute treasure.


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Re: Reel 'Patterns'
Post 14 Sep 2017, 14:56 • #8 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
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Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
hey, if I can answer a question, I will - kind of do the same thing for a living, but it's how did this thing break? or, we can't buy what we need, what can we get away with? (very common right now with post-hurricane startups)


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Re: Reel 'Patterns'
Post 18 Sep 2017, 11:02 • #9 
Sport
Joined: 12/07/11
Posts: 78
Location: US-GA
Wow, talk about a thorough answer … Out freakin' Standing ! Much Obliged !


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Re: Reel 'Patterns'
Post 18 Sep 2017, 11:43 • #10 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19104
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
you're welcome


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Re: Reel 'Patterns'
Post 18 Sep 2017, 20:37 • #11 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 01/26/07
Posts: 1386
Location: Ada, Oklahoma
Ron , I wish you hadn't shown that Revolution. I still just wanna bawl every time I think about the lowlife that stole mine. I even had a spare spool for it. :(

Larry


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Re: Reel 'Patterns'
Post 25 Sep 2017, 10:07 • #12 
Sport
Joined: 12/07/11
Posts: 78
Location: US-GA
Not to mention you're obviously a University of Georgia fan, too !

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:lol


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Re: Reel 'Patterns'
Post 25 Sep 2017, 10:33 • #13 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19104
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
I'm only a GW fan, partial Spurs fan and a Total Fan of my daughter's wrestling.
Her current national rating is 52% probability of qualifying for Tokyo (and two years to improve that).


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Re: Reel 'Patterns'
Post 22 Nov 2020, 17:18 • #14 
Master Guide
Joined: 01/08/08
Posts: 695
Location: US-MA
I came across this thread looking to find the spool dimension (between the plates) of a 3 1/2 Pattern 1. I have the reel here but without calipers, I'm having a tough time getting an accurate dimension. The spool edge has a slight turn to it so I can't really tell if it's 7/8 or 15/16. I thought I might see the measurements on some of the reel papers posted here but no luck. Just curious if anyone on the forum had see the spool dimensions before? Either way, some beautiful reels on this thread to see again. Thanks


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Re: Reel 'Patterns'
Post 22 Nov 2020, 19:01 • #15 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
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Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
Image Image

my 3-1/2" pattern 1A measures 7/8" inside the spool plates (measured w/ calipers) - and yes, it really flares wide at the top.
In the smaller sizes of pattern 1A and 5, the backplate-side of the spool is fully convex - on the right is a 2-3/4" pattern 1 that really shows the convex spool plate
Image Image


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Re: Reel 'Patterns'
Post 22 Nov 2020, 20:03 • #16 
Master Guide
Joined: 01/08/08
Posts: 695
Location: US-MA
Thanks for that info, Ron. You really do see the curve of the back plate on that 2 3/4. The Thorburn - did that have a special provenance? I recall it from another thread.


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Re: Reel 'Patterns'
Post 22 Nov 2020, 20:12 • #17 
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Joined: 08/10/05
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Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
It was an unused reel with suede bag and hang tag from Mary Thorburn's shop.
I believe the owner was probably a hero of WWII

Image Image

the same is probably true of all mint, boxed reels from 1940
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Last edited by bulldog1935 on 30 Nov 2020, 10:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Reel 'Patterns'
Post 22 Nov 2020, 22:27 • #18 
Master Guide
Joined: 01/08/08
Posts: 695
Location: US-MA
I'm sure the owner would be glad to know you made sure that reel saw the water


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Re: Reel 'Patterns'
Post 26 Nov 2020, 17:51 • #19 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 06/09/05
Posts: 2525
Location: US-CO
Colston Newton wrote:
Bulldog: You are an absolute treasure.


What Colston said.


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Re: Reel 'Patterns'
Post 27 Nov 2020, 08:06 • #20 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
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Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
aw shucks, fellas

a heads up for anyone who wants to know (not all, but a whole lot) about JW Young reel patterns,
Rupe Atwood has an updated 2nd edition in editing, and you can reserve a copy - https://medlarpress.com/news/?post=j-w- ... ew-edition
note, it's limited to 350 copies.

The first editions offered for resale out there are asking absurd prices, $200-250.


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Re: Reel 'Patterns'
Post 27 Nov 2020, 21:30 • #21 
Master Guide
Joined: 01/08/08
Posts: 695
Location: US-MA
Done. Thanks for the heads-up on that, Ron. Hopefully, I'll get one of the 350.


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Re: Reel 'Patterns'
Post 28 Nov 2020, 02:25 • #22 
Guide
Joined: 02/04/18
Posts: 208
Location: US-MN
Thanks for the heads up Ron, thanks to you I am a huge Young fan, put in my reservation too.


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Re: Reel 'Patterns'
Post 01 Dec 2020, 07:34 • #23 
Master Guide
Joined: 01/08/08
Posts: 695
Location: US-MA
I think this is the only reel I've owned that came with even a clue of who the previous if not original owner was. E.W.K. ...and I'll guess maybe from New Zealand. Either way, it's a beautiful Young and this era of their reels really were smooth. Looks like a 14A - the Allcock's Dovedale in the photo above.



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Re: Reel 'Patterns'
Post 01 Dec 2020, 08:27 • #24 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 04/20/07
Posts: 8931
Location: US-ME
Frank, my friend Ed "Willy" Keeno has been looking for that reel for years. He is glad to know you found it and have taken care of it and appreciate it. He says you can keep it if you put one or two more nice pix of the mechanism and inside spool face.


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Re: Reel 'Patterns'
Post 01 Dec 2020, 12:58 • #25 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 07/11/14
Posts: 1786
Location: urban Colorado
bulldog1935 wrote:
aw shucks, fellas

a heads up for anyone who wants to know (not all, but a whole lot) about JW Young reel patterns,
Rupe Atwood has an updated 2nd edition in editing, and you can reserve a copy - https://medlarpress.com/news/?post=j-w- ... ew-edition
note, it's limited to 350 copies.

The first editions offered for resale out there are asking absurd prices, $200-250.


the new one is £75.00 plus £25.00 shipping, that is about $135.. I'd put my name down, but that's more than I can spend..


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