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Tell me about S glass
Post 30 Jun 2018, 09:52 • #1 
Master Guide
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Location: US-VA
Bout 30 years ago, I built an ultra light spinning rod from a Fenwick S glass blank. It didn't cast worth a hoot. All it would throw were really high casts. (In golf similar drives are called Elephant Axxes...high and they stink.) No direct casts at all. I gave up on it and haven't touched S glass since. Was that a mistake?


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Post 30 Jun 2018, 10:42 • #2 
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S, or "Structural" glass has about 20% higher modulus, and somewhat greater strength, than the E, for "Electrical" glass more common in fishing rods. These properties give the designer additional freedom to reduce wall thicknesses, hence weight, and still achieve the desired functional effects at different places along the rod. For example, you can stiffen an area by increasing diameter, but use thinner wall section to reduce the weight penalty. That's about it. You can build an excellent rod with either material, and many have done so. Lamiglas was an early adopter of S glass, and those rods are well liked.

Your spinning rod likely suffered from its design or construction, or was for a different lure weight range than you were casting, and not the material per se.


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Post 30 Jun 2018, 10:51 • #3 
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Design, maybe. It sure made me leery of S glass.


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Post 30 Jun 2018, 11:36 • #4 
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It’s all design. As Tomah said we can design a little differently with S than Eglass. It all comes down to taper.


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Post 30 Jun 2018, 12:03 • #5 
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8' s-glass rods are generally superior to 8' e-glass rods, and damn-sure lighter weight.

S-glass rods match the equivalent bulk modulus of cane, and you can certainly make nice rods from cane if you think about the taper.

I've owned and sold some great S-glass rods, and still have several: Berkley Specialist, Shakespeare Kwik-Taper, Quiet Loop, Izch.

All Steffen glass rods are S-glass.


Last edited by bulldog1935 on 30 Jun 2018, 12:07, edited 2 times in total.

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Post 30 Jun 2018, 12:03 • #6 
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If you have liked rods in both E-glass and graphite the only notable difference is modulus which design takes into account: and S-glass modulus is in between the two. There ain’t no maybe. It was design.


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Post 30 Jun 2018, 12:18 • #7 
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I'll tackle the practical - use your ultralight s-glass sidearm. Your cast is lower obviously, more out of the wind, etc. I cast all of my spinning rods and baitcaster's sidearm. You can get very precise with practice, and I never cast overhead anymore, unless I absolutely have to, which is almost never. Sidearming may not overcome all faults of a poorly designed taper, but it is worth a shot.


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Post 30 Jun 2018, 13:11 • #8 
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Thanks JH, but I haven't had that rod in years...also haven't used anything but fly rods in years.


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Post 30 Jun 2018, 18:29 • #9 
Guide
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bulldog1935 wrote:
8' s-glass rods are generally superior to 8' e-glass rods, and damn-sure lighter weight.

S-glass rods match the equivalent bulk modulus of cane, and you can certainly make nice rods from cane if you think about the taper.

I've owned and sold some great S-glass rods, and still have several: Berkley Specialist, Shakespeare Kwik-Taper, Quiet Loop, Izch.

All Steffen glass rods are S-glass.


That's all quite interesting. So, just for the record, could someone tell me what other production vintage fly rods were made of S-glass?


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Post 30 Jun 2018, 18:32 • #10 
Master Guide
Joined: 06/28/16
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Location: Northern WI
Maybe it's just me but I've found most of the s-glass rods I've tried to be a touch too quick for me.


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Post 30 Jun 2018, 19:13 • #11 
Sport
Joined: 03/16/18
Posts: 51
Location: Bangor, ME
Though not vintage Steffen, Scott, Orvis, some McFarlands were/are made from S-glass. Fenwick, Lamiglas, and surely some others that I can’t recall off the top of my head were/are made from S-glass.


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Post 01 Jul 2018, 05:58 • #12 
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taper is defined by bulk modulus change over length.
bulk modulus is essentially specific modulus multiplied by modulus of interia, which is a geometric property affected by diameter and thickness.
In the right length rod with two functional tapers, you can't tell the difference in bulk modulus change, i.e., taper, only the weight difference between the two rods.
Is anyone honestly going to say, I don't like that 8-1/2' rod because it's too light?

if you tackle the same bulk modulus in different MOC, you get there by changing the diameter and thickness. What happens with shorter and lighter line-weight rods in the wrong MOC, you can't make a rod that's durable in the higher modulus MOC without adding thickness, which increases bulk modulus, and makes the rod stiffer and faster.

E-glass is the only material that will make a good progressive rod taper 7' and below (20M modulus). Check all the attempted graphite rods in those lengths - they're tomato stakes - same holds with cane, which is a working equivalent to S-glass (28M modulus - S-glass and cane will make short fast-tip para tapers.)
Though I have to give credit to the 6'9" Fisher graphite para taper, which is a great-casting rod.
7-1/2' is right around the overlap where it's possible to make a decent rod from any of the available MOCs. Certainly e-glass, S-glass, cane all make great 7-1/2' rods.
I have one blended glass/graphite rod in 7-1/2' 5wt, a Lamiglas Perigree, which is a pocket rocket, and a jewel (and almost too light to balance with a reel).
Joe Fisher blended modulus to achieve his great progressive graphite tapers - GT40 is a blend of 38M and 42M modulus.
When you get to 9' rods, and especially larger-than-medium line weights, it's obstinate not to fish graphite.

My Japanese XUL salts rods would make a perfect super-progressive dry fly rod, much like a Thomas Light Special, Heddon T-taper, or under-lined Water Witch.
Image
the core of the rod is linear glass fiber, which creates a finer super-fine tip than even DRS can build.
70% of the rod has a layer of graphite fiber, which speeds up the mid.
The horsepower butt, equivalent of a cane flared butt, is a layer of weave graphite
Image
this makes a rod that will cast 5g, protect 2-lb test, and has the butt to horse a 23" seatrout
In this 7'9" rod, you could accomplish the same thing in e-glass, but would be a 5 oz rod instead of 2 oz.

It would be interesting to see rod designers tackle the perfect 7'9" light-line dry fly rod in mixed MOC


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Post 01 Jul 2018, 09:00 • #13 
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Colston, s-glass is a material. PERIOD. Good, bad or ugly is all on the rod designer and their tapers.
There's good, bad and ugly out there in all materials. I think you know that.


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Post 01 Jul 2018, 10:59 • #14 
Master Guide
Joined: 07/05/05
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Location: US-VA
I certainly would think it, but that rod was from a good maker, either Fenwick or Lamiglas, so I had doubts about the material.

I probably have S glass fly rods and don't realize it.


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Post 01 Jul 2018, 16:44 • #15 
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Even great makers can make crappy fishing rods.


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Post 02 Jul 2018, 16:59 • #16 
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I've got an Sglass Lamiglas and it is a bit on the slow side. I'ts a 8.5ft 8wt. It might be labeled 7/8 I would have to look. I've never thought it any lighter than a comparable Eglass rod.

the couple of other Sglass Lami's I have had, I didn't feel they were any better than their Eglass cousins.


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Post 03 Jul 2018, 05:07 • #17 
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"E-glass is the only material that will make a good progressive rod taper 7' and below (20M modulus)."

I think the yellow Scott F2 6'6" 3wt shows that s-glass can also make an excellent short progressive taper rod. Maybe it isn't as durable as e-glass in this length but I haven't heard of breakage problems.


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Post 03 Jul 2018, 06:53 • #18 
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it's simply a modulus question (optimizing design around MOC) - s-glass is going to make a crisper rod, and since I haven't handled the rod, couldn't tell you how progressive the taper is, or whether it will roll-cast with a Phillipson MF66. There has certainly never been a good graphite fly rod made in this length (though some have been sold).
I'll add my rare Lami 605 (e-glass) is a truly remarkable rod.

as magicwrench mentioned, s-glass is a great choice in longer rods, and I would think 8' Steffen 3-wt is probably a jewel (and my money says a better rod than a Lami e-glass 8' 3-wt)
8' Quiet Loop is one of the best rods I've ever fished, and Notably light in hand.
and I guess you could say Notably durable
Image

My Izch in the salt will do everything my Sage RPLX will do (both para tapers) except shock your joints from working it, and probably won't cast into a 22-kt wind, but who wants to.

everyone is going to have their favorites that go contrary to math and physics.
likewise, anyone can design a bad rod that doesn't optimize properties of the MOC.
Most of the rods I've seen that were screwed up from the start, it was because they were trying to make e-glass or s-glass act like graphite.
E-glass stands alone in mid-short rods, S-glass acts like cane. Reserve graphite for long and larger line weight rods. Simple.
And I promise never to quote you out of context.


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Post 03 Jul 2018, 08:24 • #19 
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Bulldog you have been posting the same series of photos for years. I know them so well now when I do a google image search and they pop up I can instantly recognize them. Its like bumping into an old friend at the supermarket. :D


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Post 04 Jul 2018, 05:25 • #20 
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I don't like becoming the subject of the thread. That specific on-topic photo has a shock-and-awe factor, at least partly because I was shocked the day it was taken.
(the 2nd striper was even bigger, but it broke the size 10 200R hook just when I got it to hand)
The rule holds, to get a good photo, you only have to shoot 50 (especially when you spend no more than 3 seconds setting up and shooting the photo).
So I'll segue this to more praise of the Quiet Loop 8' s-glass rod - a seriously light-in-hand 5-wt.
A surgeon's scalpel for quickly delivering a slider to fish sign - jumping minnows 50' away
Image
and a perfect pocketwater high-stick-and-swing nymphing rod
Image
Image

The Quiet Loop put this 8' 4-wt e-glass Lami out of business for me, because it did everything better and weighed significantly less.
Image


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Post 04 Jul 2018, 05:37 • #21 
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That FD lami is beautiful. If you ever feel like parting with it, let me know ;)


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Post 04 Jul 2018, 06:19 • #22 
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it was a beauty and burned a hole in my pocket - long gone


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Post 04 Jul 2018, 06:49 • #23 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 10/09/09
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I get to cast a lot of short rods under 7' and the Scott F2 653 and the Steffen 6' 2/3 are both fantastic S glass rods.The 6' Steffen fished much better than a 6' Lammy built by the maker in the picture above.....but Ron that is one beautiful rod.........aurelio


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Post 04 Jul 2018, 09:07 • #24 
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Thanks, and of course, that's an 8' rod,

I may be the only one on the forum who's fished a 2-pc Lami 605 - Andy built this rod from an OS blank

Image

again, S-glass is going to make a crisp light rod, but whether it roll-casts with an MF66 is a one-to-one comparison.
My point again is a good 8' S-glass rod is going to be a better rod than 8' e-glass, and that probably includes DFS.
Though 8' Phillipsons work extremely well, they're a full ounce heavier than s-glass equivalent.

I've been challenged when I described the underhand cast required to sight-fish bass in the last half-mile of the Sabinal, between where it re-emerges from the aquifer and its confluence with the Frio. Even a roll-cast won't get you anything there. And precious room to back-cast in the s. Texas scrub. I would think a 6' s-glass rod would be the best possible tool for that work.


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Post 05 Jul 2018, 11:51 • #25 
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Joined: 06/23/05
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Ron, I did not say this..."as magicwrench mentioned, s-glass is a great choice in longer rods"


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