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Post 24 Oct 2017, 14:24 • #1 
Guide
Joined: 06/25/16
Posts: 298
Location: US-SC
I do a lot of surf fly fishing, normally with a graphite 8 weight throwing 1-2" clousers or deceivers. This past weekend I finally tried out a 10wt graphite rod I bought in June but broke on my first outing. I was able to throw a 5" deceiver on a shooting head intermediate line 90ft consistently and hooked into a strong fish which I ended up losing. I found I really like the 10wts ability to launch a big fly to big fish even in the wind.

I would like a 10wt in glass. A CGR 7/8 is the heaviest glass I currently own and I like it for flounder and seatrout in the saltwater creek but it isn't big enough for the blind casting to cuts, inlets, jetties and groins I really like to do.

I have been eyeing one of the new Echo Badass Glass Quickshot rods. But then I got to thinking about vintage glass.

How much distance/big fly throwing ability am I going to give up with something like a FF909 FF9010 or FF112? What about a System 10? I'd be happy with a brand new rod but I would be even happier to get an old rod back out in the salt for half the cost assuming it'll do what I want.


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Post 24 Oct 2017, 14:38 • #2 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 06/24/11
Posts: 1144
Location: Belgium
The vintage rods are very heavy - I wouldn't want to use one for blind casting repeatedly unless I was trying to get a workout.


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Post 24 Oct 2017, 14:48 • #3 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 09/18/14
Posts: 1367
Location: Pleasant Garden, North Carolina
I would think the Echo BAG Quick shot would be great for what your talking about. I also would avoid vintage because of weight concerns for repeated casting.


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Post 24 Oct 2017, 16:24 • #4 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 11/24/14
Posts: 1896
Location: US-NC
I just looked and saw that the Echo BAG Quick Shot 10 wt weighs 5.8 oz. I know that actual weight doesn't always translate to how a rod will feel in the hand, but that seems pretty heavy. I had an Epic 888 that weighed 5.5 oz and one of the reasons I sold it was that it was tiresome to cast it all day--graphite does have its place. I did have an opportunity to cast my Epic 888 next to an Epic Bandit I don't know its actual weight (and Epic doesn't list the weight of its built rods, just the blanks) and it was noticeably lighter in the hand.

Anyway, I'm not trying to talk you out of a new rod, but I don't know that the Echo would in fact be lighter than some of the vintage rods (though it may be, I just don't know and regardless the Echo may perhaps feel lighter in the hand). Just something to look into and consider before you buy, especially if you don't have the opportunity to test cast one. And since you're apparently OK with a shorter rod you might consider a Bandit, though the price point is quite a bit higher than the Echo (which seems very well priced) or some of the vintage rods you mentioned.


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Post 24 Oct 2017, 19:36 • #5 
Guide
Joined: 06/25/16
Posts: 298
Location: US-SC
The FFR wiki lists the old Fenwick's at around 5oz depending on model. But as you said rod weight isn't always an indicator of swing weight/feel in use.
Can't find any listed weights for a System 10.
My wife would $$$$ a chicken if I bought an Epic. That's out. Maybe one day!


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Post 24 Oct 2017, 21:25 • #6 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 09/18/09
Posts: 5561
Location: Relocated to the Drought Stricken West.
A warning, I have moved down and don't fish 9' vintage glass rods anymore. The swing weight of these 9' rods is significant. I don't own any of these heavier Fenwicks and they are probably worth a try, but an 8.5' 9wt might do just as well with that 10wt line

Vintage glass 9 and 10wt's are cheap.

I haven't cast the System 10, but I had a Leon Chandler 8/9wt (also a JK Fisher blank) that was a beautiful caster and really would get the line out there, however it was tiring to cast for any length of time. I haven't cast the large Fenwicks, but in the lighter weights, they are much lighter in hand.

I would see what you can pick up in Conolon for $50 and see how that works. They seem to chuck line a country mile. They are usually a bit heavier, but I like them in 7/8 wt.


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Post 24 Oct 2017, 23:37 • #7 
Master Guide
Joined: 06/28/16
Posts: 930
Location: Northern WI
I don't know how much it weighs, but I bet the Fenwick FF98 would be an absolute beast of a rod.


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Post 25 Oct 2017, 00:51 • #8 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 06/11/06
Posts: 2516
Location: Nature Coast Florida
I've had three Wonderods that would cast the whole line. They all had fighting butts on them. Normally $35 to $45 range.

Remember selling the 10wt a year ago and not sure where the others are too check for model numbers. Just know ones with fighting butt will throw a bunch.

Barry


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Post 25 Oct 2017, 03:07 • #9 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 06/24/11
Posts: 1144
Location: Belgium
I bet the old heavy glass rods were predominantly used with shooting heads and therefore no false casting so as to require the least effort possible. It's obviously not impossible to use them but you are going to have to really think about how to make it work. Investment is minimal so you can certainly experiment but this is definitely where graphite makes life a lot easier.


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Post 25 Oct 2017, 05:34 • #10 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 12/03/07
Posts: 1152
Location: Shenandoah Valley of Virginia
The Sci Anglers System 10 glass rods weighed 5 1/4 ounces.


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Post 25 Oct 2017, 06:03 • #11 
Guide
Joined: 10/26/16
Posts: 100
Location: UK
I would strongly caution against buying an old, large line weight glass rod. I had a 9ft #10 Hardy Fibalite for several years when I was (a lot) younger: it weighed a ton and was not pleasant to either cast or fish; I traded it down for a 10ft #7 Hardy Invincible and thought I had won the lottery.
A modern glass rod like the BAG might be an altogether different thing to cast and fish.

just my 2d


Last edited by Sash on 25 Oct 2017, 07:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Post 25 Oct 2017, 07:22 • #12 
Master Guide
Joined: 12/31/13
Posts: 519
Location: US-Mount Pleasant, SC
The System 10 needs a fighting butt. The BAG rods require a pretty heavy reel due to balance. If you can justify it, go custom - heck, some of us builders even specialize in salt rods. You're more than welcome to demo one of my 8/9s - you'd be surprised at how light and strong it is, and how nicely balanced it is with the Lemke titanium seat, allowing the use of a lighter modern reel. And it's even fully made in the USA with the exception of cork!


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Post 25 Oct 2017, 08:48 • #13 
Guide
Joined: 06/25/16
Posts: 298
Location: US-SC
Carlz, there's a Conolon/Garcia 2537B rated for 9/10 line on ebay right now for 40 bucks. Might be worth a shot as cheap as it is.

Barry, I have heard good things about Wonderods but get so confused by the all the different numbers, none of which from ebay ever seem to match up to the wiki it's put me off from spending the 30 or 40 dollars on one to try.

giogio, I'm already using an integrated shooting head on my graphite and use a fairly low grain one on my CGR 7/8, I have both a streamer express and wet tip express and both work good on the CGR for flounder and freshwater bass.

Gearboy-thanks for the weight, I've heard the old Fisher blanks are fairly light in hand for big glass

Sash-thanks for the input

Marty-Have you cast a System 10? Any good? BAG doesn't seem any lighter than the old rods. Now how it feels in hand and to cast may be a different story. I would love one of your rods but don't think I can swing it. We make it down to the family place at Pawleys for long weekends monthly, sometimes twice a month. And I take 9 days off in June to go down for my birthday. Say maybe 40 days a year spent at the coast. Can I justify spending 700$ on a rod that will get used 40 days a year? Not really. With that said if I was to drop that kind of coin on a fly rod one day I'd buy one from you instead of an Epic-money going to another SC resident is a plus to me.


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Post 25 Oct 2017, 09:13 • #14 
Master Guide
Joined: 12/31/13
Posts: 519
Location: US-Mount Pleasant, SC
Paul,

All points well taken. I have a System 10 if you'd like to borrow it. It's pretty heavy but VERY powerful. Also have the System 11, and it will heave 11-13wt lines. Similarly heavy, and I don't have the fighting butt to go with either rod. You know I have one of the flats glass up in the Classifieds right now --- ;)

Marty


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Post 25 Oct 2017, 14:30 • #15 
Guide
Joined: 06/25/16
Posts: 298
Location: US-SC
I noticed that Marty, it's a good deal.


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Post 26 Oct 2017, 06:34 • #16 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 06/24/11
Posts: 1144
Location: Belgium
Paul - Pulled a Fenwick FF109 (9' 10/11wt, 5.25 ounces) from my "collection", rigged it up with a 10 ounce + reel and a 10wt shooting head and headed out to the back yard just for you. With a slow relaxed stroke I could reach good distance without much effort. BUT there was no breeze. If I tried to generate more line speed as you would when facing a breeze then the weight made it tough and the softness made it hard to get a lot of line speed regardless of effort. Mind you it felt like a heavier head could have worked as well and that would be the way to go in a breeze.

That pretty much sums it up. With vintage fenwicks you will have to substitute line mass for line speed and forcing the cast isn't going to work. I think the old Hardys and System Rods are stiffer but then harder on the arm.


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Post 26 Oct 2017, 10:29 • #17 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19078
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
For the salt, I would bite the bullet and get in the Steffen queue for an 8-1/2' 6/7 S-glass rod.

For 8-wt and higher, I would and do fish graphite, but I haven't found many places, including the surf and jetties where a 7-wt and slime line is insufficient.


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Post 26 Oct 2017, 12:35 • #18 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 06/23/05
Posts: 4966
Location: US-MT
When I was a younger man I fished 9ft glass in the heavy weights. I had a System 10 that was rather graphite-like to cast. The Garcia mentioned above will be a fun, heavy, rod. Have a FF98 which is fairly soft, I used it a LOT with a BB9F for bass and pike, and a shooting head for bull trout.
For me, graphite makes my arm ache. I am happier fishing glass.

Now that I am not so young, I have shifted to shorter rods, I have a couple of 7.5 and 8ft rods that I really enjoy. And, now that I am not so young, casting distance doesn't seem as important.


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Post 26 Oct 2017, 14:09 • #19 
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Joined: 04/25/16
Posts: 1069
Location: Rocky Mountains - Colorado
I don't have any info on the fishing of it, but I did get the itch and found a nice deal on an FF112 about 8 months ago. I got it and looked at it for a couple of months and decided it was more rod than I needed in Colorado...so I sold it on line and got $5 more than I had in it. Vintage big line rods seem to be out there and reasonable (cheap) and if you buy cheap and then its not what you want, sell and try a different one. Could be a fun journey through some vintage rods. FWIW


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Post 26 Oct 2017, 17:26 • #20 
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Joined: 05/09/06
Posts: 2517
Location: US
I have and fish a Fisher 9ft 9/10wt and really like the rod. No it is not my 'daily driver' for the salt but I use it a lot over the course of the season and it excels at handling big stripers especially off the boat.


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Post 26 Oct 2017, 20:36 • #21 
Guide
Joined: 06/25/16
Posts: 298
Location: US-SC
Giorgio thanks for the time spent with that big old Fenwick. The casting notes are appreciated, and hey you got an excuse to play with a rod.

Bulldog, my days in the salt are limited so I fish even if its raining sideways and blowing 30mph. A 7 is nice in the creek on a calm day. There have even been days I think I could fish a 6. Just looking for a glass big gun. I know I know just pick up the graphite I already own but man I like glass. Don't we all.

Majicwrench, I agree about being happier fishing glass. I am not an aggressive caster. I can speed up for graphite but prefer to take it easy.

Bloodhound, yeah for the cost of the BAG I could buy 4 or 5 vintage glass rods, pick the one I like best if any and sell the rest. The problem is I may end up keeping them all!

Jeffsod I haven't heard anyone complain about a Fisher blank. I may have to check one out.

Which brings me to this. I think I'm going to grab a few old glass rods, I may even try an old Fenwick HMG GFF. If one of them works then horray. If not I will probably keep fishing graphite until I save enough pennies for a custom job.

Thanks everyone for the thoughts and opinions, I will let yall know what ends up added in the quiver.


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Post 27 Oct 2017, 05:28 • #22 
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Joined: 06/24/11
Posts: 1144
Location: Belgium
Paul - thanks for giving me the excuse for playing in the back yard. Was at it again. This time with a Fibalite Perfection 8'9" 7wt (fisher type blank - the older Fibalite 8'9" rated 8 is probably very similar but slightly softer). This rod is rated a 7 but it's much stronger than that - it is really a strong 8 that will chuck 9wt or 10wt shooting heads. I'm pretty sure this is the same rod as the 8'8" System 8 which might be easier to find and have better guides and reel seat for salt water. To stay in the vintage realm I was using Cortland XRL integrated heads (35' approx) which have a braided running line. This setup feels much lighter and more modern than the 2 digit Fenwick and gets the fly out there at least as effectively.

So this rod or preferably a System 8 or System 9 might just be the ticket. 10 wt from that era likely to be a real beast.


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Post 27 Oct 2017, 06:23 • #23 
Piscator
Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19078
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
Paul, you don't gain in the wind by going with a bigger line, you gain by going to a faster rod and a line that cuts the wind.
My favorite neutral-density/intermediate-sinking/"slime line" is Airflo, and if the wind is over 20 kts, I go to my RPLX7, not my 8 or 10-wt rd.
If I'm fishing over waist-deep, I'll go to the TS-250 sinker.
It's rare the wind is big enough to chase from my S-glass to the RPLX, though.
In the surf, shooting basket, I've consistently shot the RPLX7 and TS-250 140', fly line plus backing.

I go to the 10-wt rod in blue water (offshore platforms) for throwing 5" hi-ties and a TS-450 - I can count this down and fish 30' deep

My Fisher 8-wt Natural 2-pc is a great salty rod, but I have a tough time passing up the S-glass, and always have the 3-pc RPLX in reserve, because it fits in the kayak hold.
(not bragging about the spec, but showing the rod - the spec was the 2nd cast of the morning, the 1st was a bigger spec that tore the hook out)
Image

If you're wanting a bigger line weight rod, look for a Fisher (Presidential, Natural, GT40)

If you're good with haul and want distance, though, can't beat a Sage RPLX (which is a para taper)


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Post 27 Oct 2017, 12:51 • #24 
Guide
Joined: 06/25/16
Posts: 298
Location: US-SC
Nice trout, good eating there.

I agree with you that line speed is necessary for cutting through the wind. I think Tim Rajeff did a good video about that not too long ago.
But when you're talking about slower old glass that simply cannot generate that line speed what do you do when you're trying to push a big fly through the wind? As giogio stated above, the solution seems to be increase the line mass.

In any event I'm going to try a few old glass and maybe even some early graphite. The fisher suggestions and the RPLX are good, they don't seem too expensive from what I can find on ebay.


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Post 27 Oct 2017, 21:18 • #25 
Master Guide
Joined: 12/23/15
Posts: 654
Location: Texas bound
I think I would stick with graphite for the real heavy stuff. Or try a shooting head on that CGR. I fish my CGR 7/8s with a variety of lines but the one I have been fishing the most this year is the Rio Leviathan 250 grain full sinker, throwing obsenely large streamers in hopes of hooking big bass or trout. I get quite a workout doing it but I have routinely been throwing 70+ foot casts - this is lake and pond fishing and I dabbled with the same setup off a jetty for salt species a couole times. I am on the west coast so YMMV for wind etc. I found that trying to punch into a 20 knot gust was...difficult but doable. Takes a double haul for sure. I am planning on getting a TFO Mini Mag which is a glass/graphite hybrid for more serious big streamer stuff myself. Or maybe a Redington Vice 8 weight.


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