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Post 21 Jun 2018, 12:09 • #1 
New Member
Joined: 05/19/18
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Location: Iceland
Hello all,

I’ve recently bought a Epic 686 kit from Swift, not received it yet, but am wondering how the 686 performs with shooting heads? This will be my first glass rod.

I have used OPST Commando heads on my 6 and 7 weight graphite rods and 4 weight switch rod and like them. I have a 175 grain Rio Trout Max head I use on a 10’ 3 weight that matches the 686 line specification on the Swift website (between 140-175 grain).

Anyone use shooting heads with their 686’s or would you recommend a true 6 weight line instead?


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Post 21 Jun 2018, 13:28 • #2 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 06/24/11
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Location: Belgium
What sort of fishing are you going to use your 686 for?


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Post 21 Jun 2018, 15:03 • #3 
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Joined: 05/19/18
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Location: Iceland
Hi,

Trout and maybe some Salmon. We get decent trout here.

Image


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Post 21 Jun 2018, 15:45 • #4 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 06/24/11
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Location: Belgium
Nice fish - Your choice really depends on how you want to present the fly to the fish and the conditions you are facing.


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Post 21 Jun 2018, 15:53 • #5 
New Member
Joined: 05/19/18
Posts: 24
Location: Iceland
Thanks for the reply.

I’ll try both and see where my preference lies with a glass rod. Swift sends a DT Glass line as well and I’ll try that too.


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Post 21 Jun 2018, 17:16 • #6 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 12/27/14
Posts: 1501
Location: ON, Canada
I use my 686 a lot with a 200gr commando and light (T8) MOW tips. It’s a great setup. I’m pretty sure it will throw the 175gr Rio no problem, and it will probably be more comfortable if you want to overhead cast being slightly lighter.

It’s really really fun. Pretty much become my favorite way to fish any kind of moving water.

I’ve also got the Epic WF6 line and it’s amazingl good traditional line matched to the rod. They really scored with that combo. Have fun!


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Post 21 Jun 2018, 18:57 • #7 
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Joined: 05/19/18
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Location: Iceland
Thanks brockton

Can hardly wait for the kit to arrive.


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Post 22 Jun 2018, 07:07 • #8 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 06/24/11
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Location: Belgium
You will realise very quickly that glass rods in general will throw a wide range of lines comfortably. So it will pretty much be a matter of what you choose to do with it. Regarding heads - something around 270 grains in total will be fine but you have latitude on either side of that. Compared to graphite, glass has a slower speed limit so the gain in speed from going lighter is probably not as substantial as the gain in power from going heavier - if you need to beat wind (I'm just guessing from the pic you posted) look at going heavier - up to a point.

Having said that at the other extreme, a 686 could probably be used with a DT 4 to cast midges on a 7x tippet to 6" trout without it being a terrible experience. Have fun with it.


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Post 22 Jun 2018, 07:15 • #9 
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Location: Iceland
Thanks for the tips giogio! :)


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Post 22 Jun 2018, 11:36 • #10 
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Joined: 04/09/14
Posts: 173
Location: US-MN Driftless region, western Lake Superior
This is the sort of answer that dooms me. Now I want to add the 686 to the 480.


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Post 22 Jun 2018, 11:50 • #11 
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Joined: 12/27/14
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Location: ON, Canada
richardkl249 wrote:
This is the sort of answer that dooms me. Now I want to add the 686 to the 480.


It’s an amazingly versatile rod.


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Post 23 Jun 2018, 04:36 • #12 
Glass Fanatic
Joined: 04/20/07
Posts: 8920
Location: US-ME
It will be great to follow your whole experience with this build/rod. I think the responses have you covered as to shooting heads. A suggestion. Fiberglass rods are at their best in versatility within the range of casting more "traditional" lines in double taper, weight forward, and variants, as opposed to the more distinct "throwing" of a shooting head rig. It sounds to me like you have your shooting heads covered to try on the Epic and/or to continue fishing with your graphite. I think the most fun and performance gains will be experienced in trying other line types and the techniques they enable.


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Post 23 Jun 2018, 07:55 • #13 
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Joined: 09/18/09
Posts: 5561
Location: Relocated to the Drought Stricken West.
whrlpool wrote:
Fiberglass rods are at their best in versatility within the range of casting more "traditional" lines in double taper, weight forward, and variants, as opposed to the more distinct "throwing" of a shooting head rig.


I can't let this go without countering it.

Fiberglass rods are great with the compact heads and skagit style casting (with single had spey and scandi type lines as well). In fact, as you get to 8' glass rods and longer, I think is one of their strengths. I doubt it has to do with the material and more with the medium action which loads better. I don't know how the epic 686 stands up, its a rather quick rod, but I'm sure you will find a line to match it.

I second whrlpools comments. We are looking forward to hearing about your journey. We would love to see pictures, from the unboxing all the way to the first fish :)


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Post 23 Jun 2018, 09:04 • #14 
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Joined: 05/19/18
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Location: Iceland
Thanks guys.

I’ll post pictures of my attempts when I receive the kit. :)


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Post 23 Jun 2018, 19:31 • #15 
Guide
Joined: 08/19/16
Posts: 314
Location: Brazil
From the OP: "Anyone use shooting heads with their 686’s or would you recommend a true 6 weight line instead?"

whrlpool wrote:
A suggestion. Fiberglass rods are at their best in versatility within the range of casting more "traditional" lines in double taper, weight forward, and variants, as opposed to the more distinct "throwing" of a shooting head rig. It sounds to me like you have your shooting heads covered to try on the Epic and/or to continue fishing with your graphite. I think the most fun and performance gains will be experienced in trying other line types and the techniques they enable.


If one wants to cast with shooting heads, is it really necessary to sacrifice delicacy of presentation?

While looking the other day at the diagram for a scandi shooting head, it dawned on me that it is just like the first 30 feet or so of a double taper line. Therefore, it would be fairly simple to find a very reasonable compromise between a DT and a scandi head.

Nowadays, conventional wisdom dictates that the line for switch/spey casting should be about two weights heavier than what is listed on the rod, so a “6-weight” rod should work reasonably well with an 8-weight line. For more conventional overhead casting, it is common for many fishermen to over-line by one weight. From my past experience of making my own shooting heads from DT lines, a 6-weight rod should work well with the first 30 or 35 feet of a 6-weight DT line smoothly connected to Amnesia running line. So one could take the first 30 feet of a 7-weight DT line (perhaps an old one), connect it to a running line, and be able either to use it as a scandi head for switch/spey casting or for overhead casting. Thus it would be quite feasible to have the delicacy of a DT line, but still be able to switch cast when there is little room for a back-cast, or even cast overhead and easily shoot out running line when desired.


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Post 23 Jun 2018, 23:07 • #16 
Master Guide
Joined: 04/07/18
Posts: 382
Location: Reston VA
In using Commando heads or other skagit lines with a 686 which length floating tips and what kind of leaders work best?

Heddonist


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Post 24 Jun 2018, 06:07 • #17 
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Sorry, I worded my point poorly. I just meant that there is an additional realm of versatility where 'glass is at its best (relative to the graphite rods used now with your shooting heads) with more conventional line types, so these would be worth trying, too. Some of the others will have more to say on variant heads. Folks used to make their own just as you described; don't know if that's a common practice any more.


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Post 24 Jun 2018, 07:00 • #18 
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PampasPete wrote:
From my past experience of making my own shooting heads from DT lines, a 6-weight rod should work well with the first 30 or 35 feet of a 6-weight DT line smoothly connected to Amnesia running line. So one could take the first 30 feet of a 7-weight DT line (perhaps an old one), connect it to a running line, and be able either to use it as a scandi head for switch/spey casting or for overhead casting. Thus it would be quite feasible to have the delicacy of a DT line, but still be able to switch cast when there is little room for a back-cast, or even cast overhead and easily shoot out running line when desired.


Yep. I think that’s how the original scandi heads were developed for salmon fishing - with chopped front sections of big (10-12wt) DTs spliced to running lines.

In fact, I think for scandi lines these designs actually work better for glass as the modern scandi heads have really long, fine front tapers in the 18ft range, where a traditional DT has a front taper around 10ft. Those very long front tapers are much easier to for me turn over with the extra zip provided by graphite (talking spey casting here, overhead it doesn’t make as much difference). I find heads with shorter front tapers work better on my glass 2H rods - the Airflo Rage is great for this.


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Post 24 Jun 2018, 07:08 • #19 
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Heddonist wrote:
In using Commando heads or other skagit lines with a 686 which length floating tips and what kind of leaders work best?

Heddonist


This is really personal preference, but I think tips no longer than 10ft is safe for SH rods. Then just a standard leader if you’re using a floating tip.

One thing - the OPST floating tips are quite delicate and made to turn the Commando heads into more of a scandi. They’re great for soft hackles etc but don’t turn over big flies well. A floating MOW tip is better for big flies. (That’s just for the float tips, the OPST sink tips are made for the big stuff).


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Post 24 Jun 2018, 08:34 • #20 
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Joined: 05/19/18
Posts: 24
Location: Iceland
Heddonist wrote:
In using Commando heads or other skagit lines with a 686 which length floating tips and what kind of leaders work best?

Heddonist


I of course haven’t any experience (yet) of the 686 and shooting heads, but I use a 250 grain Commando head on both a 6 and 7 weight SH graphite rods and a 4 weight DH, for floating I use a 7,5’ OPST tip and standard tapered leader. For sinking I use Airflo polyleaders with various sink rates and weight. With sink tips I just use tippet.

With the Rio Skagit Max 175 grain I use the OPST 5’ 40gr sink tips and the same 7,5’floating tip.

I’ll be receiving a 6wt Epic DT line (they are offering it with the kit through June) from Swift and I’ll try that too. I also have a 7 wt Rio Perception WF that might fit nicely, first 30’ weigh in at 198 grain according to Rio if overlining could help with wind and distance?


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Post 24 Jun 2018, 09:49 • #21 
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I'm not familiar with skagit, scandi, commandos and the rest of this. To me, they could be critters in a Sci-Fi flick. I'm reading and trying my best to glean some useful information though.
A few years back I tried some Teeny sinking lines. I discovered that the T130 will help me get streamers in the strike zone using my old Hardy 866 and 907. I never got the full range feel for the Aiflo sinking leaders. It's not easy to get the feel for it after fifty years of using split shot. I'm trying it with soft hackles and wets. I'm having successful outings with them for streamers on the local creeks but find I don't like them for nymphs or wets. I'm using a SA System 6 and a new Hardy Sintrix Glass 805/6. I think that Epic 686 should be able to handle sinking leaders like a champ. I'm hoping you have fun tossing all your skagit, scandis and commandos. Let us know. Me? I'll try that sinking leader for wets again. Who knows? I may discover a new trick after all!


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Post 24 Jun 2018, 11:53 • #22 
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Joined: 09/18/09
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Scud, whether you are joking or not:

Skagit, scandi and full spey are differnet lines from the two hander world.

Full Spey (or mid or short spey) are like the DT lines in the single hander world. A long belly line that roll casts well. They swing traditional spey flies well.
Scandi (Scandinavian) are long head WF lines with a long front taper. Dry fly or delicate presentation, you can shoot line with these.
Skagit (named after the river) are heavy, compact shooting heads. Chucking heavy stuff, shooting lots of line. Personally I think it is getting close to using a spinning rod.

On top of this, there are leaders (poly leaders, MOW tips, ....) that make things even more confusing. If you start into the two hander world, the surprise is how many lines and leaders you end up with. You end up with a wallet of different heads and poly leaders. It's a nightmare. trying to figure it all out.

OPST Comando heads are Skagit heads built for shorter (single handed or short switch) rods.

So this all boils down to single handed spey casting with fiberglass fly rods. It's a new vocabulary for stuff that's been around for a long time.


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Post 24 Jun 2018, 11:57 • #23 
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Hey scud dog,

I’m not gonna claim that skagit and shooting heads are a must, but it’s a lot of fun ;)
These heads also overhead cast very well, one backcast and you let loose a lot of line :)

https://youtu.be/z5OmMYOY9iE

I like sink tips in fast(ish) moving water to get my flies into the zone quickly but for stillwater fishing I generally use a floating tip or a traditional floating line.

SThor


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Post 24 Jun 2018, 12:23 • #24 
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Do you use floating flies with a sinking line at all? I've wanted to try boobie fishing, but have never gotten around to it.


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Post 24 Jun 2018, 12:54 • #25 
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Joined: 05/19/18
Posts: 24
Location: Iceland
carlz wrote:
Do you use floating flies with a sinking line at all? I've wanted to try boobie fishing, but have never gotten around to it.

I haven’t tried that, but it has crossed my mind. I was looking into the Airflo Streamer Max for both streamer fishing and boobies, it’s a 40’ sinking head and intermediate running line, I don’t really like full sink lines.

http://airflousa.com/project/streamer-max-long-2/

I like intermediate lines for stillwater too, I have the old Rio Outbound for lake fishing, the fish above was caught in an area here in the Icelandic highlands with numerous lakes and horrible weather/wind most of the time. How does the 686, or glass in general, cope with the wind in your experience?

SThor


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