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Post 26 Nov 2017, 21:25 • #26 
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Location: Ada, Oklahoma
Ron, thanks for all the information and for offering to guide. May take you up on that.

Larry


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Post 27 Nov 2017, 08:16 • #27 
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Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
I'm not going to visit S. Llano, but if you want to set up a trip for a small group to the confluence of the Guadalupe forks, LMK.
(If I'm going to drive 120 mi to fish, it will be to the confluence of the Frio and Sabinal in the s. Texas scrub - more great sight-fishing.)
I'll bring my Cummings Water Witch.

All the crossings around Center Point fish really well, too, and I know all the banks where the landowners will let you hike.
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I guess I've never understood the preponderance to equate the hill country with the Llano. To me, that's all high mesa, on the wrong side of the escarpment. The Llano begins and ends in the Highland Lakes. SH 41 from Junction to Mountain Home and the YO Ranch is the far southern tip of the Great Plains. The Llano is close to the hill country. I lived in Austin for 15 years, and fished every spot on the San Gabriel, but it drains miles and miles of black-dirt farmland. The hill country rivers don't have chert.
I've fished it all - any crossing within 150 mi, but nothing compares to the headwaters of the Guadalupe and Pedernales (except maybe the Sabinal and Frio, which divide with the Guadalupe). The hill country rivers have cold springs and dolomite bottom. There's a classic divide there, with two rivers going in opposite directions.
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here are the springs where the Guadalupe emerges in Kerr WMA (my buddy Randy owns the dry creek sendero uphill from here)
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For the next 100 miles, there are seepage springs in the limestone every 30 yards. And when you get close to my house, the river gives up flow to source the Trinity aquifer (between Mueller falls and just left of this photo), which is also where that big endemic hen came from.
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Last edited by bulldog1935 on 13 Dec 2017, 13:54, edited 2 times in total.

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Post 27 Nov 2017, 08:16 • #28 
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Looks a little more natural than the Trinity in Ft Worth.

I would be interested. Maybe see if my brother in law can get hooked on fly fishing should this transpire.

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Post 27 Nov 2017, 11:08 • #29 
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Joined: 03/16/17
Posts: 169
Location: US-TX
Hey, I'm not going to argue the beauty of the Guadalupe, Frio, Sabinal and Nueces Rivers ... I've loved them for more than four decades. But I will point out (pedantically, not doubt) that your map of the Edwards Aquifer is only the southern portion of the aquifer, the portion associated with the Colorado and Guadalupe basins. There is a northern portion of the same aquifer that is in the Brazos River basin and actually (surprisingly!) features many more springs than the southern section (I could dig out the hydrologic surveys ... they're on the interwebs).

I'll also respectfully disagree with your characterization of the forks of the Gabe. The river falls off the Grand Prairie (which overlays the Edwards Plateau) and onto the Blackland Prairie (the black dirt farmland you mention) east of I-35, which coincidentally (or not) follows the Balcones Fault Zone from San Antonio all the way to Fort Worth. Austin-Bergstrom International Airport and Juan in a Million are on the Blackland Prairie. Bee Caves, the Arboretum and the Pennybacker Bridge are in the Hill Country.

There's a good (combined) 90 miles of San Gabriel River on the Hill Country side of I-35.

It is true that the different regions offer different plant assemblages -- more sycamore, streamside, than cypress in the northern section. But Onion Creek, all the way through South Austin, has beautiful, towering cypress trees, three ranks deep. Feels a lot like the Medina River in places.

As a native Texan, "Hill Country" to me means limestone, rimrock canyons, ashe juniper (cedar), springs, and clear water. Lonely Ranch-to-Market roads with terrific views. Sometimes it's the high country of the plateau, sometimes the broken, eroding edges. Also Guadalupe bass and Rios. Guads, of course, are truly native only to the eastern slope of the Edwards Plateau, and Rio Grande cichlids to the Rio Grande (and possibly Nueces) basins to the south and west.

Interestingly, and as an aside, we also had an endemic largemouth bass species at one time -- M. salmoides nuecensis -- which has probably been hybridized out of existence in most places thanks to the introduction of Florida-strain bass. Darned invasives.

I love your passion for your home waters and don't disagree that they are worthy of consideration. I'll go wherever!


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Post 27 Nov 2017, 12:49 • #30 
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Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
The N. fork of the San Gabriel begins right under US183 bridge at Seward Junction. The south fork begins just a little farther west (Liberty Hill), but it's still draining all that flat farmland east of Burnet.
There's some hill country under Lake Travis.

If you want to see the stunning beauty of the escarpment, take any road into Leakey and, even better, go west from Vanderpool through Leakey to Camp Wood.

The high prarie isn't the hill country. The escarpment between the prarie and the coastal plain is the hill country. Marble Falls is the highlands.

An education for anyone is to wade Williams Creek in Tarpley. There's a blue hole right by the highway bridge. As you're wading down the creek, there are slits in the bottom and you can look 15' down into the underground creek that parallels the surface creek.
What makes endemic Guadalupe bass special is they are the only bass species that will retreat into the aquifer to survive our droughts. Polluting their gene pool with smallmouth may eliminate that ability to survive. The state's answer is to stock where they're not native.

You might want to check elevation on the Brazos river basin. I'm pretty sure that's the Glen Rose aquifer. The Nolan River has lots of limestone. By your definition, 2/3 of Texas becomes the hill country, and that's just not true.


Last edited by bulldog1935 on 27 Nov 2017, 12:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Post 27 Nov 2017, 12:50 • #31 
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Joined: 03/16/17
Posts: 169
Location: US-TX
Um ... no. The North Fork rises north of Burnet. The South Fork just southeast of there. If you've never fished above US183 on either fork, you haven't fished every spot on the San Gabriel(s) -- you've missed out!

Here's what TPWD's Analysis of Texas Waterways says about them:

North Fork
43 miles

The North San Gabriel River is formed in Burnet County and flows generally southward through Burnet and Williamson Counties to join the South Fork in Georgetown. The waterway is scenic, winding river flowing through limestone formations typical of the Edwards Plateau.

South Fork
34 miles

Formed in Burnet County, the South San Gabriel River flows generally eastward through Williamson County to eventually join the North San Gabriel River at Georgetown. The two forks are quite similar. The total length of the river is approximately 34 miles. The South San Gabriel River is a scenic, winding river containing numerous limestone bluffs.


Good suggestion! What I find, when I check elevations, is the following:

Elevation of Enchanted Rock is 1,825 ft. Old Baldy in Garner State Park is 1,890 ft. with a prominence of about 400 ft. The high point of Medina County is 1,320 ft. Lone Oak Mountain in Llano County is 1900 ft. Elevations increase to the north and west.

Turnbow Mountain in Bell County (Brazos basin) is 1,200 ft with a prominence of 210 ft. The Hog Mountains in Lampasas County rise to 1,975 ft. Post Oak Ridge in Williamson County tops out at around 1340 ft. Burnet County's high point is 1,604 ft. All of these in the Brazos watershed (Burnet Co. also in the Colorado River watershed). Elevations increase as you go north. Parts of the Llano Estacado, where the Brazos rises, are nearly a mile high.

Consider what happens east of I-35, on the downslope side of the Edwards Plateau: Austin-Bergstrom International Airport has an elevation of 524 ft. Just 22 miles to the west, around Bee Cave, several hills top 1,400 ft. The city of Taylor, in eastern Williamson Co., is 564 ft.

A quick glance at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Hill_Country shows that at least someone thinks Bell, Burnet, Lampasas and Williamson Counties are part of the Hill Country. And also that those counties are at least partly on the Edwards Plateau: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwards_Plateau

None of it is the Sangre de Cristos or San Juans, but it's what we've got, for fishing. I like it all.

Here's where I agree with you wholeheartedly: Ranch Road 337 between Vanderpool and Leakey is possibly the prettiest drive in Texas, maybe the entire four-state region.


Last edited by TXH2Oman on 29 Nov 2017, 11:19, edited 2 times in total.

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Post 27 Nov 2017, 12:52 • #32 
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Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
there are 650' cliffs on that drive.
Edwards Plateau. Wasn't I the guy who was talking about the high mesa.
My house in Bulverde is 1400', and it's almost 4 hours south of Brazos basin.


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Post 27 Nov 2017, 12:55 • #33 
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bulldog1935 wrote:
there are 650' cliffs on that drive.
Edwards Plateau. Wasn't I the guy who was talking about the high mesa.
My house in Bulverde is 1400', and it's almost 4 hours south of Brazos basin.


Okay. Not arguing that Bulverde is *not* the Hill Country. Just saying that the Lampasas, Gabes, Brushy Creek, Colorado, Pedernales, Onion Creek, etc., also share in that designation.

Yeah, as the name suggests, the whole thing is a "high mesa," or plateau. The only reason there are hills and canyons, other than the several uplifts below it, are the rivers.


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Post 27 Nov 2017, 13:09 • #34 
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Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
not so

Seco creek gets to play - at least the part above where it disappears into the aquifer
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how does it compare to the Sangre de Cristos? It doesn't need apologizing
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the reason is there has to be something between the great plains and the coastal plain

The Canadian River and canyonlands still ain't hill country.

and btw, I was walking all over limestone on Harbor Island last month - between Brown & Root flat and Corpus Christi channel.


Last edited by bulldog1935 on 27 Nov 2017, 19:43, edited 4 times in total.

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Post 27 Nov 2017, 13:17 • #35 
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bulldog1935 wrote:
not so

Seco creek gets to play - at least the part above where it disappears into the aquifer
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the reason is there has to be something between the great plains and the coastal plain

The Canadian River and canyonlands still ain't hill country.


Well, it's your opinion against the geologists and geographers, I guess.

And I never said the Canadian River and canyonlands are Hill Country, just making a point about elevation, which you brought into the discussion. ;-)

And I'm not mad. Heck, I might even be wrong (I often am ... but usually not about this stuff). It's all stuff I needed to look up anyhow. So, thanks! Hope I get to fish with you sometime.


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Post 27 Nov 2017, 21:46 • #36 
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bulldog1935 wrote:
and btw, I was walking all over limestone on Harbor Island last month - between Brown & Root flat and Corpus Christi channel.


That is all dredge spoil from the Corpus Christi Ship Channel. Lots of interesting Pleistocene megafauna fossils there and also on some of the spoil islands along the ICW. I've found Columbian mammoth tusk sections and teeth, giant sloth rib bones, glyptotherium (giant armadillo) scutes, tons of more recent sandollars with solid sand accretions. I've found the odd piece of sandstone there, but I can't recall any limestone. It's a fun place to take the kiddos.


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Post 28 Nov 2017, 08:02 • #37 
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This thread has some great photos; worthy of 2nd and third looks!!!-p-


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Post 28 Nov 2017, 10:04 • #38 
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Joined: 08/10/05
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Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
I wish I had aimed the camera back the other way, but the edge of this beach was dolomite substrata, not spoil
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You can call this hill country if you want, you can call the muddy San Gabriel headwaters hill country, but you're wrong.
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If you can fish the San Gabriel headwaters 48 days after a flood, you're doing good.
This is hill country headwaters - if you can fish it 48 hours after a flood, it's hill country.
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This is Hunt crossing just above the confluence 48 hours after a flood (1200 cfs down to 80).
Monitor USGS, as soon as the flow drops, go fishing
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The confluence is the cypress tunnel behind Kelly.
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This is Pedernales headwaters near Tivydale 48 hours after a flood - 900 cfs went through here.
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This is Sabinal - 12 mile bridge - 12 miles below Utopia 48 hours after a flood.
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have to be very careful wading here, because you can see your feet everywhere and the next step may be over your head

The Llano river is near the hill country, the Lampasas river is further away, in addition to being farther away.


Last edited by bulldog1935 on 29 Nov 2017, 07:19, edited 4 times in total.

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Post 28 Nov 2017, 10:05 • #39 
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Joined: 04/05/14
Posts: 438
Location: US-OK
I agree w pearow, I've been back several times to look at the pics


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Post 28 Nov 2017, 10:28 • #40 
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Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 19078
Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
we're having fun yet

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my buddy Spiny Norman took this photo of me, fishing chutes at Center Point
endemic bass will live in faster water than trout will occupy
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I watched Lone Star last night - hadn't seen in a long time, and I don't watch many Matthew McConnehey films, even though he's a Uvalde boy, but this is a good one.
My favorite line in the move, they're discussing the sheriff, and he's overhearing. He wears that hat, but doesn't have a cap underneath.
Of course it doesn't apply to anyone, but it's a fun way to look at our debate.

One more point about that Pedernales crossing. This is the same crossing, down the bend from the first photo, and in the worst of our late drought.
All these pools are Cold and a bust below here, there's a 6'-deep cold pool loaded with big bass to sight-fish.
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Last edited by bulldog1935 on 28 Nov 2017, 11:14, edited 6 times in total.

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Post 28 Nov 2017, 10:35 • #41 
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The vigorous debate has generated great information and pictures. I agree with pearow and okmike.

If a location can not be chosen then something is really wrong :)


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Post 28 Nov 2017, 11:29 • #42 
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Joined: 01/26/07
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Location: Ada, Oklahoma
I'm going to offer three alternatives: If we can do this in April, hopefully missing much of the summer vacation rush, we could set up in Lost Maples Natural Area on the Sabinal or Garner State Park on the Frio. One advantage of Garner State Park would be that those who might bring a tent wouldn't need to as we could rent one or two screened shelters that will sleep up to 8 people. Our friend Carl (the Gumbo King) would really like to join us as usual, but he already has dates set for his band through most of next year. The weekends he would have available in April are 13-14 and 27-28. From either of these locations we could fish the Sabinal, the Frio, or the Nueces.

If those weekends are not suitable and we need to go later in May, I would recommend the city park in Mason which would give us a central location from which we could fan out.

Larry


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Post 28 Nov 2017, 13:42 • #43 
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Location: downtown Bulverde, Texas
You might find the easiest fishing access from Mason, and it's still easy travel to Hunt or Tivydale. Good crossings nearby, though it's all pretty big water. My choice to fish from a bag came from watching a friend here swim from gravel bar to gravel bar, holding his rod and bag up in one hand. The still water has largemouth, and the moving water smallmouth. Close enough to explore the Llano forks.
There are also neat little oddball waters nearby like the James River, which will sure give you a taste of Texas. (For anyone who wants to hit it, that Tivydale crossing is White Oak at the west end of Morris Ranch Rd.)
I'd also recommend plan a banquet at Hitttop Cafe (on US87 at the turnoff to Doss) - remarkable food, cooked by Johnny Nicholas and his wife. http://hilltopcafe.com/
April is temperate weather and good bass bite. In May the shocking humidity shows up.

If you guys want to do Garner, it might be fun to plan an outing way south to the Frio and Sabinal confluence, which has killer sight-fishing for 5-lb bass, and chance to see where a river emerges from the aquifer. The only other vehicles there are INS. Also caught cichlids here the size of footballs.
Garner is beautiful, and there's worthwhile fishing in the park. Easy to get to the Sabinal crossings, and upper Nueces - either direction from Leakey is a stunning drive.

These photos are the s. Texas scrub, and all the Frio at the confluence - can't believe I don't have Sabinal photos - probably because the close-quarter sight-fishing is too intense.
Image sorry about the thumb
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Post 28 Nov 2017, 15:32 • #44 
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I'm good with either date in April


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Post 28 Nov 2017, 15:37 • #45 
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Posts: 438
Location: US-OK
Screened shelters sound kind of cool, although I will probably still hammock camp. The option of just my army cot sounds good too


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Post 28 Nov 2017, 20:34 • #46 
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Location: US-TX
Y'all just keep me posted on where you decide to go (Larry, if I get a vote, South Llano River SP would still be my first choice -- puts Mason, Barksdale/Nueces, Menard, Tivydale/Pedernales all within about an hour), and when. If I'm not at work, I'll be there. All those waters look great!

In the meantime, I've got my work cut out for me figuring out a.) why entire counties (so far a minimum of three, maybe five or six) have been excised from the Texas Hill Country and what, if anything, can be done about that (I'm going to miss my clear, spring-fed streams and Guadalupe bass!) and b.) where all that limestone is hiding down in the Coastal Bend.

*For the record, and for anyone who would like to fish in Williamson or Burnet Counties down the road, the forks of the Gabe typically are clear and fishable within a couple of days of a big rain event.


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Post 29 Nov 2017, 09:56 • #47 
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been there, done that for 15 years - Tejas camp is still my favorite white bass run, anywhere, but there are Native endemic Guadauple bass to be found elsewhere, especially where rivers are sourced from aquifer springs instead of surface runoff.
I get pissed with P&W for thinking my state is their private f'n aquarium. When a shock survey turns up white bass in Johnson Creek, they're gonna say "Oops" - again - "good thing we have that strain in our hatchery.'

Glen Rose is pretty country, real cowboys for the 3 hours it takes to get there, they have great BBQ at AJ's, but it ain't the damn hill country - everything can't be the hill country - there has to be boundaries and where and how rivers are sourced is a pretty good test for that. There's the hill country, there's the highland lakes - you climb through the hill country to get to the highland lakes - they're two different regions because they have different geology and hydrology. When you get to Junction or Mountain Home, the hill country is behind you. (Cooper's BBQ in Junction, and Lum's is pretty good, too. Next stop is Ft. Stockton, and don't expect to see a tree before you get to Ruidoso.) Any place there isn't a granite outcrop in Texas, you don't have to dig very far to find limestone - it floats up in your yard.

I'm certainly not planning this, nor do I want a vote - just been offering information - and probably won't make the gathering anyway - but I'm offering to meet some folks and guide them in some of my home waters. Quite honestly, talking about fishing has never been my idea of fun. But my favorite part of fishing is always the friends and food.

Lower Brazos river around Navasoto
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Last edited by bulldog1935 on 05 Dec 2017, 08:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Post 29 Nov 2017, 11:20 • #48 
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Well ... the corpse of this poor horse has about disintegrated and is starting to smell a bit, so I'm walking away from it after this post. ;-) I think this whole "debate" began with a discussion of where to hold a get-together that Larry is organizing, and you and I, Bulldog, were advocating for our home waters. It's terrific when anyone thinks they have great water in the neighborhood, and it's also pretty wonderful that Central Texas has so much of it. I will say, again, that I have no quarrel with any of the streams or locations you have mentioned. I have fished many (but not all) of them over the past four decades and they are lovely and productive.

Since I don't actually know you, Bulldog, it's hard to know precisely in what spirit you intend your comments, though it does seem important to you to be seen as authoritative and correct. Me too, I guess. Humility is a good and useful thing to have. I'll ask Santa for some in the stocking this year.

What I do take exception to is misinformation about my home waters, because I love them, because I want other people to love them enough that they will be conserved for my kids and their kids, and also because there are a number of businesses in the area -- some operated by friends of mine -- that depend on accurate information about those waters to keep the lights on and grow. It becomes unfunny when someone decides not to visit because someone else, a self-declared expert, has stated unequivocally that the streams are muddy, or that dozens or hundreds of miles of rivers simply don't exist, or that three or four or five or six counties are not actually in the region a visitor is set on fishing.

In the spirit of correcting the most recent factually incorrect statements (or implications); Tejas Camp is the upper end of Lake Georgetown, a river interrupted. Glen Rose is, indeed, pretty country -- old John Graves certainly thought so. Anyone who has never read Goodbye to a River should run out and get it right away. Never said it was Hill Country, just that the Balcones Fault ran up that way. The northern segment of the Edwards Aquifer actually contains more springs than the San Antonio-Barton Springs segment that has received so much attention. I can think of five, offhand, walking distance from my house in Georgetown. Just as an example. All three forks of the Gabe, the Lampasas River, Brushy Creek, Salado Creek, and Onion Creek are spring-fed streams. Lots of places in Texas don't have any exposed limestone whatsoever. The bays of the Coastal Bend being one of them. Legend has it there was a limestone shelf in the water where Rockport Harbor (thus the name) is now, but no one living has ever seen it. Of course, there are serpulid accretions in Baffin Bay (the "rocks"), but that ain't limestone. Sandstone accretions do turn up on the beaches and in dredge spoil, but that ain't limestone either. Also shellcrete rubble from old, pre-Republic and Republic-era construction. Also not limestone.

One thing, among several, that we actually agree on: TPWD has been guilty of some egregious errors in stocking fish. In defense of the fisheries biologists, though, often they have presented the science of why it's not a good idea, and the Commission (political patronage positions doled out by whichever governor is in office -- mostly large landowners with high-fenced, scientifically-bred, private "wild"life herds, and private waters) overrules them. And then, somewhere down the road, they have to figure out how to get the horse back in the barn (or the smallies out of the rivers ... thankfully the the winters took care of the Nile perch). Fortunately, it seems the tide is turning (to further mix my metaphors), and more emphasis is being placed on native fishes. I think that's a good thing.

Love this incredibly useful and generally helpful and friendly forum. Since the primary utility of this thread seems to be the pics, here are a few more ... Bulldog, since you've fished every spot on the Gabe and "fished it all -- every crossing within 150 miles," I'm sure you'll recognize all of them. ;-)

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And, in the spirit of John Gierach, who said: "Maybe your stature as a fly fisherman isn't determined by how big a trout you can catch, but by how small a trout you can catch without being disappointed," here's Canoeman (and yes, Bulldog, I realize that isn't a trout he's holding):

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*may be some repeat photos here, as well as arguments, but they're probably worth looking at twice. The photos, that is.


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Post 29 Nov 2017, 12:41 • #49 
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Location: Ada, Oklahoma
Of all the pictures available, you just had to print that one. :lol

Larry


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Post 29 Nov 2017, 12:47 • #50 
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Joined: 02/12/16
Posts: 4094
Location: USA-CO
Pretty country, water, and fish!


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